The Assembly met at noon (Mr Speaker in the Chair).
Members observed two minutes’ silence.

Assembly Business

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: The Member is fast out of the blocks, but there is another matter which requires attention before I come to his point of order. Mr Cedric Wilson has asked to make a personal statement to the House.

Mr Cedric Wilson: During the course of business on 1 May I left the Chamber at a time when the Deputy Speaker was dealing with a point of order. I wish to apologise to the Chair. It was not my intention to show any disrespect to the Deputy Speaker or the Chair.

Mr Speaker: Mr Wilson has taken the proper course of action in making this statement, and it is noted by the Chair.
You had a point of order to raise, Mr Paisley.

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: You will be aware, Mr Speaker, that on 2 February, and again on 12 March, the Director of Finance and Personnel for the Assembly wrote to all Members expressly forbidding the use of any room for election campaigning. It has been brought to my attention that the Deputy First Minister made part of his election video in this Building, in a room overlooking the Prince of Wales entrance. Will you conduct an investigation into what I believe is a breach of the rules and, indeed, the conduct to which Members — especially a Deputy First Minister — should adhere?

Mr Speaker: I am aware that a fellow Speaker in one of the other devolved Assemblies took the opportunity to advise members of the regulations and requirements in the Chamber. As far we are concerned, as the Member says, regulations and advice have been furnished by the Director of Finance and Personnel for the Assembly. If Members are concerned about their own observation of the regulations, or of any other Member’s, they should, in the first instance, draw that concern to the attention of the Director of Finance and Personnel for the Assembly. I ask the Member to do that if he has particular concerns of the kind he describes. If some problems remain after that, if they are drawn to my attention outside the Chamber, I will certainly give advice as to how they might be properly followed up.
I trust that is clear for Members.

Defective Premises (Landlord’s Liability) Bill

Mr Mark Durkan: I beg to move
That the Defective Premises (Landlord’s Liability) Bill [NIA 5/00] do now pass.
This Bill has now passed through the various stages of scrutiny, and I would like to take this further opportunity to place on record my thanks to the members of the Committee for Finance and Personnel who have given this Bill detailed investigation and consideration.
I reiterate the comments I made at Consideration Stage. This is a limited but, I think, useful law reform measure, designed to clarify and materially widen the ambit of a landlord’s liability for failure to repair defective premises. A legal anomaly has been dealt with, and when the legislation comes into force this time next year, we will have a regime of liability which has existed for nearly all landlords in England and Wales since 1974.
The reasons why landlords of restricted and regulated tenancies do not fall within the scope of this reform at this time have been thoroughly debated, particularly at Committee Stage, and I believe that all those associated with this Bill have reached a consensus that to exempt such landlords is just about the right thing to do at this stage. Obviously it is not an ideal situation, but with the current state of the private rented sector, particularly in relation to grants and enforcement issues, it would be unfair to impose this burden on landlords who cannot achieve normal market rents. However, this situation would be revisited if the proposed review by the Department for Social Development leads to a material change in that sector.
I commend this short Bill to the Assembly.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Defective Premises (Landlord’s Liability) Bill [NIA 5/00] do now pass.

Adoption (Intercountry Aspects) Bill: Final Stage

Ms Bairbre de Brún: Molaim Céim Dheiridh an Bhille (Gnéithe Idirthíortha) Uchtaithe.
A Cheann Comhairle, is é príomhchuspóir an Bhille ná Coinbhinsiún na Háige a chur i bhfeidhm anseo.
Sna blianta deireannacha mhéadaigh ar an tsuim i bpáistí ón choigrích a uchtú. Ní suarach iad na buntáistí a thig le páiste ón choigrích a fháil ó bheith á uchtú ag teaghlach anseo. Ní féidir áibhéil a dhéanamh ach oiread ar áthas pearsanta agus sásamh lánúineacha gan chlann a fhéadann baile maith a thairiscint do pháiste ón choigrích.
Is léir go bhféadann mórbhuntáistí a theacht as an uchtú idirthíortha, ach tá sé riachtanach a chinntiú go gcosnaíonn na socruithe atá idir tíortha leas páistí agus go ndaingnítear cearta tuismitheoirí breithe nó cúramóirí eile i dtír dhúchais an pháiste.
I beg to move
That the final stage of the Adoption (Intercountry Aspects) Bill [NIA 8/00] do now pass.
The primary purpose of this Bill is to give effect to the 1993 Hague Convention on the protection of children and co-operation in respect of intercountry adoption.
In recent years there has been an increased interest in the adoption of children from abroad. The benefits that such a child can obtain through adoption by a family here can be substantial. Equally, the personal happiness and fulfilment of childless couples who are able to provide a good home for a child from abroad cannot be overestimated. Intercountry adoption can clearly yield enormous benefits, but it is necessary to ensure that the arrangements between countries protect the welfare of children and secure the rights of birth parents or other carers in the child’s country of orgin.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Adoption (Intercountry Aspects) Bill [NIA 8/00] do now pass.

Mr Speaker: We come to a series of four Statutory Rules subject to confirmatory resolution. I propose, by leave, to take the first two motions separately, with debates on them if the House so chooses. The second two will be taken together, with one debate if the House so chooses, since they refer to the same substance.

Social Security (Incapacity Benefit) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000

Mr Maurice Morrow: I beg to move
That the Social Security (Incapacity Benefit) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 be approved.
The Welfare Reform and Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 made various changes to incapacity benefit. Those included more stringent contribution conditions, the payment of incapacity benefit rather than severe disablement allowance to help people disabled at birth or before the age of 20, and the abatement of the amount of incapacity benefit when an occupational or personal pension was being paid.
These regulations will relax the conditions for receiving the benefit for some disabled people and carers. The contribution conditions will be relaxed for people who were receiving invalidity care allowance immediately before they claimed incapacity benefit. They will also be relaxed for those who receive disabled person’s tax credit and earn less than the lower earnings level — currently £72 a week — and for people who received incapacity benefit in the tax year before the one in which they claimed.
The regulations will also make it easier for those incapacitated in youth to qualify for incapacity benefit, particularly a young person who registered for and attended a course of full-time advanced or secondary education or vocational or work-based training for at least three months before the age of 20. That person may be entitled to benefit up to the age of 25. A young person who takes up employment and has earnings below the lower earnings limit for a lengthy period before again becoming incapable of work will be able to requalify and do so for periods beyond the normal linking rules. The normal linking rules are modified for people incapacitated in youth who stopped claiming incapacity benefit and went to work.
The regulations also protect people who return from abroad and were in receipt of benefit in the last tax year prior to the new claim. The regulations provide that the normal abatement of the amount of incapacity benefit when an occupational or personal pension in excess of £85 a week is in payment will not apply to severely disabled people in receipt of the highest rate care component of disability living allowance.
All the changes to incapacity benefit apply only to new claims made after 6 April 2001. Existent beneficiaries at the point of change will not be affected by the new measures. These regulations are entirely beneficial and will enable a wide range of deserving groups to continue to receive incapacity benefit.

Mr Oliver Gibson: What will be the real benefit of those changes to those who are incapacitated in youth?

Mr Maurice Morrow: Young people incapacitated early in life will gain as much as £27·60 a week, that is £69·75 long-term incapacity benefit less £42·15 severe disablement allowance under provisions allowing them access to incapacity benefit without their having paid the normal national insurance contribution.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Social Security (Incapacity Benefit) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 be approved.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2001

Mr Maurice Morrow: I beg to move
That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
This is an annual Order which increases rates of contributory and non-contributory benefits, together with the various premiums which form part of the income-related benefits. As usual, the increases are based on changes to the relevant price indicators over the 12 months ending in September. Most social security benefits rise in the usual way, in line with the retail price index, which this year is 3·3%, while most income-related benefits, for instance, income support, housing benefit and income-based jobseeker’s allowance, are increased by the Rossi index, which is 1·6%. Pensions and some of the premiums which are part of the income-related benefits are increased by more than these percentages.
More is being done to help people with disabilities and carers. The disabled child premium is increased by £7·40 a week above inflation, from £22·25 to £30 a week. This is a real increase for some of the most needy families in the country. From April the new disability income guarantee was introduced at the rate of £142 a week for a single person and £186·80 for couples. In addition, young adults disabled early in life will benefit from an extra £27·60 a week.
More is also being done to recognise the enormous contribution that carers make. The carers premium is increased by £10 a week on top of the normal up-rating, raising the premium from £14·15 to £24·40. This measure will help many carers on low incomes.
More is being done too for pensioners. The minimum income guarantee was introduced to give more help to the poorest pensioners. This Order raises the guarantee to £92·15 a week. The basic state pension is increased by £5 for single pensioners and by £8 for married couples. Widows and bereavement benefits rise by the same amount. The Order increases rates of benefit in line with inflation and provides additional help for those who need it most.

Mr Oliver Gibson: I thank the Minister for this information. What about those whose partners are not able to meet all the requirements of the jobseeker’s allowance?

Mr Maurice Morrow: Provision has been made for people in that situation. I will write to the Member with full details to answer his question.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.

Jobseeker’s Allowance (Joint Claims: Consequential Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001

Social Security (Work-focused Interviews for Lone Parents) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001

Mr Speaker: I will ask the Minister to address the next two motions on the Order Paper. Anyone who wishes to speak should refer to either or both motions. After any debate we will vote on the first motion, and then the second will be formally proposed and voted on.

Mr Maurice Morrow: I beg to move
That the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Joint Claims: Consequential Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
The following motion stood on the Order Paper:
That the Social Security (Work-focused Interviews for Lone Parents) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved. — [Minister for Social Development]

Mr Maurice Morrow: I wish to seek the Assembly’s approval for two sets of Regulations. Both arise out of the changes introduced by the Welfare Reforms and Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 and are required to ensure that parity in social security provision between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is maintained.
The first set of Regulations amends the Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1996 as a consequence of the introduction of a joint claims regime for certain couples from 19 March 2001. I should first explain that the Welfare Reforms and Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 contains provisions which require couples to make a joint claim for jobseeker’s allowance where neither partner has responsibility for a child.
The Jobseeker’s Allowance Joint Claims Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 introduced these provisions on 19 March 2001 and apply when one or both partners were aged between 18 and 24 at the time the requirements came into effect. Under those Regulations, both members of the couple are now required to meet jobseeker’s allowance conditions and to be available for, and actively seek, work. They will both receive help to obtain work and will be directed to training programmes or New Deal assistance as appropriate. Joint claims for jobseeker’s allowance will ensure that both partners are involved in the labour market, preventing them from adjusting to benefit dependency at an early age. These are young people without children, in a position to find and take work.
These Regulations ensure that couples who are required to make a joint claim for jobseeker’s allowance are treated in the same way as single claimants. This is done through amendment of the principal Regulations: the Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1996.
The principal Regulations provide for a claimant to be treated as meeting the "availability" and "actively seeking employment" conditions of entitlement for jobseeker’s allowance in certain circumstances where, in practice, the claimant is unable to meet the conditions for good reasons.
Regulation 14 of the principal Regulations includes provision that a claimant of jobseeker’s allowance can be treated as available for employment if he and his partner are absent from Northern Ireland for up to four weeks, and if his partner qualifies for specified pensioner and disability premiums.
Regulation 50 of the principal Regulations provides that a claimant will be treated as being in Northern Ireland during a period of temporary absence if he is in Great Britain for up to four weeks, or is abroad as agreed for the purposes of attending an interview for up to seven days.
The amending Regulations under discussion today extend these favourable conditions to cover a member of a joint-claim couple who is temporarily absent on the date of the joint claim for jobseeker’s allowance.
Regulation 19 of the principal Regulations includes provision that a claimant of jobseeker’s allowance shall be treated as actively seeking employment if he and his partner are absent from Northern Ireland for up to four weeks, and if his partner qualifies for specified pensioner and disability premiums.
Paragraphs 2 and 3 of Regulation 2 before us today simply extend these arrangements to joint claimants, so that they are treated as available for and actively seeking employment in the circumstances I have described.
Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Regulation 2 of today’s amending Regulations make technical amendments to existing jobseeker’s allowance regulations 64 and 65. These amendments ensure that the requirements for a 16-or-17 year-old claimant to be available for and actively seek employment are the same whether he is a single claimant or a member of a joint-claim couple.
We aim to ensure that joint claimants seeking jobseeker’s allowance are treated in the same way as single claimants. The changes introduced by the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Joint Claims: Consequential Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 will put joint claimants on an equal footing with single claimants as regards labour market conditions for receiving jobseeker’s allowance.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Joint Claims: Consequential Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Social Security (Work-focused Interviews for Lone Parents) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
(Madam Deputy Speaker [Ms Morrice] in the Chair)

Soccer Strategy

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I beg to move
That this Assembly notes the publication of the report ‘Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland – views of the stakeholders’ and notes the progress made on the development of the strategy.
I am delighted to have this opportunity to introduce the future of soccer in Northern Ireland for debate in the Assembly. The debate is very timely given the progress to date on the initiative I launched last October to create a soccer strategy for Northern Ireland. Issues surrounding soccer have been raised and discussed in the Assembly on a number of previous occasions. It would be useful for me to rehearse the background to the soccer initiative and to clarify progress to date.
For some time I have been deeply concerned about the future of football in Northern Ireland. Under devolution, taking up ministerial responsibility for sport has provided me with the opportunity to act on my concerns.
Soccer is in serious difficulties due to a whole raft of problems. Grounds risk closure as they fall seriously short of acceptable health and safety standards. Matches are poorly attended. Clubs are in financial difficulties. There is hooliganism and sectarian behaviour by spectators, and the public has a poor perception of the game. I was convinced that we could and should find ways of overcoming the difficulties. We need to restore to full health the sport that has served all sections of our community for so long and so well.
Northern Ireland can be proud of its rich history of involvement in the evolution of world football. The local game’s governing authority, the Irish Football Association (IFA), is the fourth oldest association in the world. The Irish Football League (IFL) is the third oldest league. Therefore it is important to reflect that we are part of a game that was at the very beginning of international football. There was a football association here before there was one in Italy, Germany, Brazil, or Argentina. It is part of our heritage and culture, and that is also something that needs to be borne in mind.
Northern Ireland has produced some wonderful players, but we are now suffering from a shortage of quality players coming through the system. Sadly, the Northern Ireland international team has not participated in the final stages of the World Cup since Mexico in 1986. Football is part of our culture. It has kept going over the past 30 difficult years, serving society well, and we cannot allow it to go to the wall, which is where it is heading if nothing is done to help it.
I believe firmly that there is a potential audience for live football here. The number of spectators who travel across the water to follow the big clubs such as Manchester United, Rangers, Celtic and Liverpool shows that the potential is there. I do not see our clubs ever competing with the big clubs at that level — or with live matches — nor do I see local football attracting the big crowds that it did in the 1950s and 1960s. Those days are probably over. However, football here can be developed in a complementary way to generate widespread interest and a following for a good-quality and thriving local game.
We have obligations to the younger generation of Northern Ireland, and I would like to maximise the opportunities for boys and girls alike to participate in and enjoy the game. We need to provide the potential for them to progress to the highest levels if that is what they want to do.
When I considered the issues I realised that the way forward was not to deal with them in isolation. The Assembly should look towards a vision for football and see where the game should be in five, 10 or 20 years. What are the issues, and how should we tackle them? What are the problems, and how do we solve them? How can we improve the image of the game and increase spectator numbers? Can we broaden the spectator base to make the game attractive to women and families? What steps can be taken to create a welcoming and family-friendly environment? Can we increase access and participation? How should we go about developing youth football and women’s football? What does it take to improve the infrastructure, grounds, facilities, administration, coaching and funding?
Those are some of the questions that arose during the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s early discussions about the game. There are no easy fixes. Change will require a great deal of effort, support and resources. However, if the Assembly wants to make football a thriving and successful sport once again, we need to plan now for the future. There is a huge opportunity to develop football, and that would create benefits for the self-esteem and image of our community at home and further afield. I concluded early on that progress could be achieved only by having a strategy for the development of the game. Last October I introduced the "Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland — views of the stakeholders" initiative.
Notwithstanding the need for a long-term strategy for soccer, it was clear that some urgent measures were necessary to tackle the most serious health and safety problems at our top sports venues. There is no doubt about the seriousness of the problems. Substantial measures are required to make our sports grounds safe and comfortable for spectators and players. Safety at the grounds and the need to bring those grounds up to the standard recommended in the Taylor report in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 are matters which could and should have been tackled more actively under direct rule. However, they were not.
Northern Ireland did not share in the Football Trust’s substantial funding for major schemes for grounds improvements that were carried out elsewhere in the United Kingdom in the 1990s following the Taylor report — for which some £600 million was made available.
It was assessed then that Northern Ireland needed over £20 million to comply with the new safety legislation that was introduced in the rest of the United Kingdom as a result of Taylor. Under direct rule we got nothing. The potential for funding has been dramatically reduced, because the Football Foundation that administered those large sums of money and which did so well for the game in England, Wales and Scotland, but not in Northern Ireland, has been replaced by the Football Trust. The football trust is envisaged as an England-only organisation.
Northern Ireland inherited its situation as a result of direct rule. However, Members will recall that last year I introduced an interim measure, the safe sports ground scheme, that was designed to implement urgent health and safety recommendations at football, gaelic and rugby grounds. That work proceeded due to some £5·3 million being made available over three years. I am glad to acknowledge the Assembly’s decision to support the allocation of £2 million last year to enable the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to speed up progress on those improvements.
I am pleased with progress on that front, but I recognise that this is just the beginning and that more needs to be done. Nevertheless, we have a scheme running, and the decision to provide financial support is in our hands. That demonstrates the scope to achieve real progress at local level, progress that could not have been achieved without that local input.
When I announced my plans for a strategy for soccer at the end of last year I intended that the process should be open and inclusive and involve a wide spectrum of interest. The initiative was not just about Irish league football, which undoubtedly has its problems. I wanted the process to look at all levels of the game from the grass roots up.
There have been three important stages to the process. First, I established an advisory panel with a broad range of interests and experience to guide and advise on the development of the strategy. Second, the panel carried out an extensive consultation exercise with interested individuals and groups and the public on the issues facing football and how the game needs to be improved.
On 5 February we published the findings of this exercise in a report called ‘Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland — views of the stakeholders, which provided the basis for a conference workshop in Newcastle during the weekend of 10 February and 11 February.
I want to place on record my sincere thanks and appreciation to the members of the advisory panel, under the chairmanship of Billy Hamilton, for the substantial amount of work and effort they have devoted, and are continuing to devote, to this process. The level of time and commitment they have given has been much more than was anticipated.
It is not my role, nor the panel’s, to lay down how things should be. Therefore it is imperative that there is a broad consensus from the football family on ideas about how the game should be developed. The panel’s role is to provide advice as we move along and to facilitate and guide the process that will translate the ideas into a strategy for action for the future.
I commissioned the ‘views of the stakeholders’ report to help identify difficulties in the game. I understand that copies have been made available to Members. I wanted the initiative to be open and inclusive, hence the commissioning of widespread consultation and the publication of the findings. Unsurprisingly, the exercise has generated, in the words of the consultants, "an extraordinarily high level of interest and passion." It is a valuable record of what people think about the game. Issues such as the standard of facilities, structure of the game, standard of play, youth development, media, hooliganism and sectarianism have come forward as a result.
We invited delegates to take part in a conference workshop in Newcastle. This provided an opportunity to bring together 68 representatives of the key stakeholder groups, including representatives of the Assembly Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, to debate the issues and begin to develop ideas.
I would again like to place on record my appreciation to everyone involved for participating in that weekend. Having taken the ideas that emerged at the conference we are currently at the crucial stage of working on recommendations for the future. The advisory panel and my officials are actively engaged in discussions with representatives of football interests at various levels, including the Irish Football Association (IFA), the Irish Football League (IFL), the players and the media to formulate proposals across a range of issues. These discussions are an important part of the process and will contribute to the report that I expect to receive from the advisory panel by the end of the summer. My intention is to use that report as the basis for publishing a draft strategy document in September for widespread consultation.
It would be improper and unwise of me to anticipate the advisory panel’s recommendations, but I can give an indication of progress on some of the issues the report is likely to address.
Members of the panel have led several working sessions involving different interest groups. I am aware that proposals have been produced for consideration by the panel for a youth development policy setting out agreed objectives and structures for the future of youth football in Northern Ireland. The proposals have been produced through representatives of the Irish League clubs, all of the football associations and the Sports Council, working together towards a common purpose.
The media, the IFA and the IFL have worked together to come up with practical solutions for improving media relations. I am told it is intended to re-establish the Professional Players’ Association (PPA) from the start of next season. That recommendation is coming from the players as a direct consequence of the soccer strategy process.
Other ongoing work includes looking at ground facilities and health and safety requirements. I expect to receive recommendations on the need for health and safety legislation for Northern Ireland, taking into account the legislation produced in Great Britain. I anticipate that such recommendations will also look at the need for any new legislation to strengthen existing public order provisions to combat unacceptable behaviour at sports grounds, including sectarianism, which has been highlighted as a major issue for soccer.
As I have pointed out in the Assembly on previous occasions, sectarianism is not unique to sport or, indeed, to football. Sport alone cannot solve society’s problems. We are, however, addressing this problem within the strategy on a number of fronts. A working group that includes the Irish Football Association (IFA), the Sports Council for Northern Ireland and the Community Relations Council has been set up to identify the issues and to produce recommendations on what future action can be taken to rid football of the scourge of disruptive behaviour. When I launch the soccer strategy for consultation later this year, I expect there to be a range of options for dealing with this problem.
I hope I have given a flavour of what the soccer strategy will address. There are, of course, other issues which I have not yet touched upon and which I expect will also be addressed within the strategy. There is the matter of how football is governed and how senior league football is structured and managed in Northern Ireland. These are big issues, not only for those who support football but also for the organisations at the centre. Individual clubs face problems as to how they might be helped in terms of future management and development in the community.
The subject of a national stadium has also been raised in the context of the soccer strategy. That has implications for sports other than football. The debate is ongoing as to the viability and sustainability of such a project for Northern Ireland. I will be interested to see what emerges from the soccer strategy on the needs of football, and especially international football.
Inevitably some problems will be easier to sort out than others. There will be substantial resource implications for some issues, and it will be up to the football sector to resolve them. I am confident that the strategy document will provide a direction for the future which we can all encourage and support.
I look forward to receiving the advisory panel’s report and to launching the strategy document in due course. Discussions with the Assembly and the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure on the way forward will be an important part of the process. One of the most important aspects of today’s debate is that, as local politicians, we are looking at an issue together, and that has implications for our community. The progress we have made so far on the safe sports ground scheme and on the soccer strategy would not have been possible without devolution. There has been a lack of funding over the past 15 years under the football foundation. Local people, local politicians and local soccer interests are talking to each other for the betterment of football and sport in general and our society as a whole.

Mr Eamonn ONeill: I rise to support the motion. Our Committee welcomes the PricewaterhouseCoopers report and will support the Minister’s emphasis on ensuring an inclusive and transparent process of consultation. As you may recall, we raised the matter of consultation earlier in the year, particularly with regard to a series of meetings held at five separate venues. The Committee was concerned that people who had important contributions to make on the subject may have been excluded from the meetings. The report does not provide details as to where those five public meetings were held.
The report does, however, appear to generate a significant response from those involved in the game and from the public. The interrelated issues that emerged came as no surprise. Lack of finance was perceived as a major problem, and the report indicates that Irish League clubs are facing financial difficulties, deteriorating grounds, lack of sponsorship, poor marketing and image problems. I understand that the Minister intends to address these issues in his strategy for sport.
Will the strategy place emphasis on additional funding and funding sources to support the game? That is required, but adequate financial management and sound business techniques are needed most in the long term. Although finance is important, management techniques are also important to ensure that maximum use is made of the available funds.
The Committee has taken a particular interest in the allocation of the health and safety funds that were made available under the safe sports grounds scheme. On 4 December 2000, the Minister told the Assembly that an estimated £25 million was required to upgrade our existing stadiums. As he said, £5·3 million has been secured so far to undertake essential work. The Minister indicated that he would like to work on this issue. What plans has he and the Department prepared to ensure that health and safety funding will continue after the initial phase?
The Committee hopes to visit a number of stadiums in Scotland this year to look at work carried out as a result of recommendations in the Taylor report. As Members know, a great deal of excellent work has been completed using Football Trust money. This is relevant to our situation, and the Committee hopes to explore this area in particular.
The Minister is already on record as having indicated the Department’s intention to bring forward legislation to implement the Taylor report. When is this likely to be programmed?
The overwhelming response from the report was that there was a need for one governing body to take forward senior football. It appears that the Irish Football Association (IFA) and the Irish Football League (IFL) fail to work together, and the perceived degree of conflict between them contributes to the negative image of soccer here. For example, we have seen that a sole central authority in the South — joining the Football Association of Ireland (FAI) and the Eircom league — has benefited football in terms of increased crowds and better performances in Europe.
Although the primary aim of the Department’s strategy will be the improvement of the Irish league, the ultimate by-product will be the production of a better international team. Will the Minister tell us whether the Department intends to create a unified governing body for soccer? He referred to it as a major management issue in the future, but is he predisposed to go in that direction?
Two important areas highlighted by the report are youth development and community involvement. It is vital to attract young people to the game and provide them with the opportunity to develop their skills. The report highlighted the sense of loss that results from young players being lured away to play for clubs in the United Kingdom, which are perceived as offering better opportunities. Therefore it is essential that the Department’s strategy addresses the issues of how the game in Northern Ireland can benefit from the development of our talented young players, and how they can be provided with opportunities.
I was glad to hear the Minister state that the advisory panel has focused on a youth development policy. Would he consider, as part of the strategy, similar coaching techniques to those employed by the Belfast Giants? Many Members may be familiar with this. The Giants hire professional players to coach young people, and this, incidentally, is an excellent way of establishing the sport here. They appear to be having some success already.
This coaching system works in two ways. Young players have the privilege of being coached by someone they admire greatly, and aspire to be like, and the ice hockey players are contributing to the community. The Committee was impressed when, during a recent public session, it heard evidence from the organisers of the Giants about how they went about their training. Perhaps we should be learning from good practice where it exists.
The area of community involvement is difficult. However, it is valid for the success of the game to establish links and positive loyalties with the community.
Of those questioned for the report, 62% rated the image of soccer in Northern Ireland as "quite" or "very poor," and only 14% thought that it was "quite good".
Media coverage appears to be a big issue that needs to be addressed. I am again heartened that the advisory panel has focused on that as a major issue. Has the Minister had any discussions with the television companies about the comments that were made during the preparation of the final report? Such discussions might influence issues even before the advisory panel completes its work.
Unfortunately, media coverage often includes images of sectarianism and hooliganism. While there is no doubt that they come from a small core of people, sectarianism and hooliganism exist at club and international level. The perception, from the report, is that those factors are responsible for alienating people, especially family groups, from the game.
The Committee recognises and applauds the good work of the IFA in tackling this problem at international level. The Minister has been forthright in his condemnation of the sectarian behaviour. He also said that he will examine the need for legislation to deal specifically with the problem as part of the soccer strategy.
The Committee looks forward to being consulted on the draft strategy at an early date. I look forward to hearing the views of other Members. I support the motion.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I must leave the Chamber to attend a Committee meeting. I believe that it is now protocol for Members to indicate that. I will, however, be monitoring the responses given.

Mr Derek Hussey: I too endorse the strategy. During the drafting of the strategy, although the major tendency was to look at problems at a senior level, I welcomed the involvement of representatives of clubs at junior, intermediate and youth levels in the consultation process to introduce a forward strategy.
Although I welcome the Minister’s statement, I seek some reassurance. Mention has rightly been made of youth development. I am sure that the Minister realises that a tremendous amount of youth development in Association Football takes place through the junior and intermediate clubs. Indeed — and I respond to the Chairperson of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure — tremendous community involvement is generated via the localised set-ups at the lower levels.
I seek assurance from the Minister that the taking forward of the strategy will involve junior and intermediate clubs, and the youth wings, in the strategy’s implementation and the provision of the necessary funding, to assist clubs at the lower levels in improving the standards of play and upgrading facilities.

Mr David Hilditch: I support the motion. I thank the Minister for bringing this issue before the Assembly. I welcome the opportunity to note the report and to highlight a number of important issues on the subject.
This debate comes on the back of what was probably one of the most successful days for local soccer in the past 30 years — the recent Irish Cup final, when everything that is good in soccer was highlighted — [Interruption]

A Member: Except the result.

Mr David Hilditch: — except the result.
The football fraternity eagerly awaits the final report and the recommendations that it will contain. Can the Minister confirm that we are still on course for the soccer strategy to be in place by the autumn?
There was a degree of disappointment that the strategy could not be put in place by the close of this season to allow for some forward planning. However, everyone involved in the game appreciates the depth of consultation that was required. It was probably best not to be rushed; the important thing is to get the end product right.
The ‘Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland — views of the stakeholders’ report is a crucial part of the process and must be welcomed. I can identify with many of the issues raised concerning matters over the past 20 years, as I have had various responsibilities as a player, coach, referee, paying spectator and, currently, an administrator.
The report is comprehensive and covers all levels of soccer and the key stakeholders in the game. The only criticism of the process is the contribution of some members of the advisory panel, and they have been made aware of the figures. Some members who were afforded a place on the panel may find participation particularly difficult because of their cross-channel commitments to the game. However, the majority of panel members should be praised for their work, and those who took part in the conference workshop in Newcastle should also be praised. It provided an opportunity for people involved in soccer to get together in an intense environment to give their honest assessment of the failures in the sport. At the end of the three days honesty prevailed, even among those who had gone to Newcastle to defend their organisations and policies over the years. The "look at us and how great we are" mentality was put to bed, and views which, in the past, had gone unheard were taken on board.
The main part of the research and the matters on which we should be concentrating are contained in part three of the report, entitled ‘The Emerging Issues’. These are listed in bullet points. Although it has been difficult to prioritise them, they are listed in order of importance — finance, facilities, structure, youth development, community involvement, image, sectarianism and hooliganism. Many of these issues are interlinked. At the top of the list is finance, which is also the common denominator of the other emerging issues. Although it is not within the scope of the research remit to investigate and report on the financial state of Irish League clubs or any other part of the structure of football in Northern Ireland, it might have been prudent to do so, as that would have given us a real insight into the problems facing us.
The Government may provide financial assistance to help with health and safety and other matters, but no one expects Government handouts just to keep clubs solvent. However, the Assembly should know of some factors which explain why many senior clubs find themselves in their current positions. A typical first division club, with a fortnightly gate of between £200 and £300, is left with £25 to £30 after match expenses. That is only for match day. The club then has to find players’ wages, ground rent, administration costs and electricity charges, et cetera. On top of that is the burning issue of rates. The rates bill for a typical first division club is over £4,000. That is only for the football side; it has nothing to do with the social club. A club that finds it impossible to meet its weekly commitments is charged rates at a commercial level. A team that plays its last home game on 21April and does not play another until the middle of August has no income coming through its gates for a quarter of the year.
I call upon the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Minister of Finance and Personnel to deal with this situation immediately. If commercial property is not used, it should not be charged accordingly. Other sources of income are social clubs and sponsorships. A home sponsored game every fortnight would raise between £200 and £300 a game. Social clubs are things of the past. They were successful in the 1970s and 1980s when people were looking for a secure environment in which to socialise. Times and trends have changed, and people are now looking for social entertainment with much more on offer. Time has stood still for many social clubs. They find it difficult to pay their way, never mind contribute finance to offset the cost of sustaining soccer.
It is acknowledged that, in addition to the Government, all stakeholders in soccer should deal with reality when it comes to finance. Most clubs are now gearing themselves to live within their means. I urge the Assembly also to play its part.
There is much to be said on the emerging issues. The report sets them out adequately, and they should be taken on board in time. I have highlighted only one aspect of the report, but I emphasise that there is much feeling, fervour and passion about football here. A large number of people await autumn, the finished soccer strategy, its recommendations and public consultation.

Mr Kieran McCarthy: Once again the Assembly gives locally elected people the opportunity to debate issues that matter greatly to the people of Northern Ireland.
Today the subject is football. It certainly makes a change from going over and over the old sterile arguments.
The report is informative and timely. Now that the Assembly is in place, we have a real opportunity to change, contribute to and improve football in Northern Ireland. The Alliance Party supports much of this report. We agree that competitions overwork players, who then have little or no time to improve their skills. Realistically, there should be fewer competitions.
The Alliance Party also has concerns about the structure of football in Northern Ireland, both in the Irish Football Association and the Irish Football League. Currently there is a lack of clarity in each organisation’s role. Surely a single governing body would make more sense. Not only would it remove overlap in role and responsibilities, it could cut costs by streamlining staff and eliminating duplication.
Under no circumstances, however, can the Alliance Party support any question of cutting the post of the IFA community relations officer, who is doing an excellent job and very important and essential work. That must continue and be supported, and I ask the Minister today to give the Assembly a commitment that it will be so.
The Alliance Party — like the report — calls for a new stadium on neutral ground. We committed to this in the Programme for Government, and it forms part of our manifesto. It makes sense, of course, that to get the best use from any such sporting ground it must be multi- purpose. We do not want a large white elephant — even if it be on neutral ground.
Alliance also supports making available the full amount called for in the upgrading of senior clubs — the whole £20 million rather than the £6 million currently allocated. This money must only, however, be allocated as part of an overall strategy to improve grounds, quality of play and the overall experience for fans and spectators.
The Minister and other Members who spoke earlier agreed that central to improving the experience for fans is the tackling of the scourge of sectarianism. Over 90% of people in the clubs felt that sectarianism had an impact. Over 90% of people perceived to be Protestant thought that sectarianism affected football. It is seen as even more of a problem than hooliganism — and rightly so. It is a problem at international matches and at Irish League matches. It is a problem and does nothing to the credit of Northern Ireland or of football.
I welcome the Minister’s commitment against sectarianism and hooliganism. It has to stop. We can tolerate it no longer. I have raised the matter with the Minister in the Assembly. I have made speeches about it, and I continue to make speeches. Extend the Football (Offences Act) 1991 to Northern Ireland. Outlaw sectarian chanting and the throwing of abuse at the pitch, at players and other fans. If the Minister is tired of hearing me say this, let him do something quickly. Only then will I be quiet.
In conclusion, football in Northern Ireland has to become a family-orientated form of entertainment, and the sooner that is brought about, the sooner we can have a thriving and well-supported football and soccer industry. That will give the whole community something to shout about together.

Mr Billy Hutchinson: I welcome the motion and congratulate the Minister for bringing it forward. I do, however, feel a bit cheated. I always do feel cheated by consultants. The Minister invited consultants to Parliament Buildings. They looked at the clock and told us what time it was. We knew exactly what problems existed in soccer. What we need to do is get on with finding the means to resolve them, rather than spending large amounts of money on consultants’ telling us what is wrong.
One of the best documents ever written about soccer is the Taylor report. Paragraph 59 of chapter 2 entitled ‘A Better Future for Football’ states
"It is not enough to aim only at the minimum measures necessary for safety. That has been, at best, the approach in the past and too often not even that standard has been achieved. What is required is the vision and the imagination to achieve a new ethos for football. Grounds should be upgraded. Attitudes should be more welcoming. The aim should be to provide more modern and comfortable accommodation, better and more varied facilities, more consultation with the supporters and more positive leadership. If such a policy is implemented it will not only improve safety. There will also be an improvement in behaviour, making crowd control easier."
We can assume that every Member, including the Minister, wants to achieve those aims. They must be the basis from which we work.
I congratulate the Minister on what he has done so far and on what the panel has achieved. However, there are many myths about. I heard what Members have said this morning. East Antrim Member David Hilditch has been involved in soccer at different levels, and he probably knows more about the administration side than I do. However, as a football supporter who goes to grounds every week, I know that people continually talk about the amount of games that are played and about how that inhibits the skills of young players. The football season in England ended on Saturday. I am not a Liverpool supporter, but Liverpool played sixty-odd games. There are four local players in the team— Michael Owen, Steven Gerrard, Carragher and Fowler — and I would defy anybody to tell me that they are not skilful. Those four kids played in most of the games, and we are continually told that it is wrong.
People pick up skills by playing the game at the speed that it should be played at — in a match, not on a training ground. Training ground practice is not the same as a match-day game. Players can practise things at a certain speed on the training ground, but on a match day they can bet that the opposing team will be in quickly to try to stop them from playing. The four kids from Liverpool have proved that. We must get rid of some of the myths.
Another myth is that footballers in Northern Ireland do not coach young people. Where have people been? Linfield and Dundalk football clubs are involved in the Dunfield project whereby the players coach in the community. I am sure that Alban Maginness and the Sinn Féin Member Gerry Kelly know that Cliftonville Football Club in North Belfast has received money to employ a development officer to work in the community. Many teams in Northern Ireland do not have the money to do that. Some teams have found sources to enable them to do it. Of course teams will work and coach in the community, but they must have the money to do so.
We must get rid of these perceptions and myths. People must understand what is really happening in football grounds. We must recognise that for the past thirty-odd years people have committed themselves — from the chairmen and board members of the premiership and first division teams right down to the grass roots — to local soccer through the worst times and with no money. However, the Football Trust was set up in 1958. Anybody who reads the finance section of the Taylor report — a report written in 1989 — will find that the trust was drawing in £9 million a year from the three major pools companies. From 1958 to 1989 about £120 million went into football for British teams. In relation to the trust’s powers, the Taylor report actually says
"football in Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
Why did we not get the money? If we did not get the money, we should be asking for some of it now. If we did get the money, why were the grounds not improved? We must ask those questions.
There are several things that we can do. For example, we can look at the time at which football is played. Most people focus on when Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Distillery or Carrick Rangers are playing. We do not need to focus on that. We need to focus on when other people are playing. Amateur and junior football teams play at the same time that the semi-professional teams play. We must focus on that problem and co-ordinate the games.
It is not just a matter of Government or the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure facilitating the process. We need to tell those in the Irish Football Association (IFA) and the Irish Football League (IFL) who have responsibility that they must do certain things before the money will be made available. We are not a charity; we are here to save our national sport.
No one can argue that soccer is not a traditional sport for people from both communities. We must get people back into football grounds, and we must improve the quality of play. Most people think that the quality of play in the Irish Premier League is not very good. I watch the games every week, and I can assure Members that the quality is good. However, the League does not get proper media coverage.
There is also a focus on sectarianism. We are told that sectarianism is an evil in sport and that it keeps away the crowds. How does that explain the large crowds who watch Linfield play Cliftonville? Do one team’s fans really stay away because of the sectarianism of the opposing fans? There has been little trouble in the past few years. The football clubs have made an effort, as have the IFA and the IFL, and that should be recognised. The way to get rid of hooliganism and sectarianism is to implement the recommendations contained in the Taylor report. The report recommends all-seater stadiums and a ticketing system that means that people should purchase tickets in their own name, that the tickets should be numbered and that people should have to sit in the allocated seats. If that happened, CCTV could show where the trouble was, and it could be quickly eradicated. We must focus on such improvements, but first we must get the crowds back to football.
There has been talk about developing junior soccer. In England, football academies have been set up because of the cost of buying players. The Football Association has set up its own school of excellence. We should do that in Northern Ireland, and we should also set up football academies in each of the six counties. That is the way to develop soccer.
People have suggested that we could restrict the opportunities for young players to move across the water. That is nonsense. Most parents who know that Liverpool, Manchester United, Leeds, Arsenal or Newcastle football clubs are interested in their child get pound signs in front of their eyes. In England, Arsenal paid £1 million for a fourteen-year-old — nobody here can compete with that. We must ensure that players who do not make it in England have somewhere to go in the Irish Premier League if they come back to Northern Ireland.
We cannot compete with the money in England, where clubs get billions of pounds for television coverage. We do not have that potential, so we need to understand what we have, how we can market it and what it is worth. We should not inhibit young players from Northern Ireland, who are the future of the international team, from going to England. If those children will be better players as a result of going over there, that is in the interest of Northern Ireland. Local clubs must make sure that they get players at the standard that they need.
I accept what Mr Hilditch said about local councils. I did not realise that rates were paid on the football side alone — I thought that rates were paid for the social clubs. We need to address that, but local councils should look at what the football clubs can do for them. We should also consider the fact that local councils subsidise leisure centres and theatres that probably do not draw the crowds that football grounds would, if we packaged football properly. Local councils should look at how they could subsidise football grounds and clubs. Belfast City Council would have a problem, because there are four football teams, but the council should examine ways of resolving it.
The Minister said that many football fans leave these shores on a weekly basis to go to matches in Scotland and England. I have spoken to staff at the airports and ports, who tell me that approximately 5,500 fans leave these shores every week. If that figure is multiplied by the 38 matches in the Premier League, it gives some idea of how many people from here attend those matches.
It is important that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure shows leadership. I said earlier that I did not think that we should facilitate this strategy, but rather we should show leadership and tell people what they need to do. I am not advocating dictatorship, but we should resolve problems. I do not want this strategy — and I am sure other Members do not want it — simply because two bodies cannot agree. The Assembly must agree on what should be done and must ensure that people understand what needs to happen.
The document discusses the "image of soccer", and I am not sure what that refers to. It may be a reference to the quality of play by the teams or individual players, or it may refer to the image the fans bring to the game. Whatever it refers to, the image of football must be improved. Family membership and disabled supporters must be looked after, and grounds must be fitted out to ensure the safety of those people. That is outlined in the Taylor report, and it is important that we work on it.
My recommendation is that we proceed and that we look to the Taylor report for guidance. Did we or did we not receive money, and, if we did, has it been used for ground improvements? The report refers to football in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so if we did not receive money, we should be asking for it now. Other changes that involve taxes, people going through turnstiles not being charged VAT, and so forth can be dealt with by the British Government at Westminster. Rates can be dealt with locally.
The Government must come up with a scheme whereby businessmen are encouraged to invest in football. The Taylor report mentions one manager who took his children to a Tottenham Hotspur game where McDonald’s burgers were on sale. I do not think that we will get a McDonald’s in every football ground in Northern Ireland, but businesses must be asked to start putting money back into football here. Club chairmen and directors must be asked to examine the vision for football. There is a clear vision for football in the Taylor report, chapter 2 ‘A Better Future for Football’, paragraph 59. If we achieve that vision, we will have achieved everything we can for a wonderful game.

Mr Alban Maginness: Mr Hutchinson said that we need to get the crowds back to football matches in order to lift the game. But how do we get those crowds back, and how do we make the sport popular again? There is no doubt that soccer is universally popular. No other sport has such appeal —from South America to Europe to Africa. Soccer is the premier game in most countries. The Minister said that we were in the lead in the development of modern soccer, and that is true historically. However, something has happened along the line to cause local soccer to fall into decline.
This discussion document is, therefore, very timely, looking as it does at the problems associated with local soccer. This survey does not arrive at any conclusions, but it maps out areas of concern and suggests possible conclusions. The report is very useful indeed, and the Minister deserves great credit for initiating it.
The Minister also deserves great credit from the Assembly for his forthright rejection of any form of sectarianism in sport, particularly soccer, and for the political leadership that he has shown.
A number of issues need to be tackled, and this survey highlights them. Poor facilities is one such issue, and many Members have touched upon it. It is clear from the report that players and the public all regard poor facilities as a major problem. It is also clear from it that football matches, indeed soccer in general, are not seen as family-friendly and are ill-equipped in other ways as well.
There are other reasons for soccer’s decline such as the extensive television coverage of high-quality professional football in Britain, Europe and throughout the world. Obviously, that has had an adverse impact on local soccer, because local soccer cannot compete with that. In addition, the attraction of premier league teams in Britain has produced a talent drain here. One cannot blame youngsters for being attracted to English clubs in particular. One could not practically or lawfully prevent youngsters from going across the water to improve their quality of play and their standard of living. There are other factors at work, some of which I have highlighted and are highlighted in the report, factors that are also at work in the Irish Republic and other parts of Britain.
We have unique problems with football. The survey identifies hooliganism and sectarianism as major problems. One can see from the survey that sectarianism is having an impact on attendance at international football and Irish League games. Sadly there is a division of opinion about the impact of sectarianism. Those perceived to be Protestants say that sectarianism negatively impacts on attendance at international matches by 36%, and those perceived to be Catholics say that it is by 83%.
At Irish League games, in the Protestant community it is seen as 26%, and in the Catholic community, 56%. I use those figures to highlight the fact that the Catholic community is more concerned about sectarianism impacting on attendance at Irish League clubs and international matches. That must be taken into consideration. It is fair to say that throughout the whole community there is great concern about the impact of sectarianism on football. We must address that as a community.
I agree with Billy Hutchinson that we as politicians must give leadership; we must show leadership in relation to sectarianism. Our Minister has given a lead in that regard. Any strategy that we develop in relation to the revival of local soccer must address the problem of sectarianism. I do not pretend that there is an easy solution to this. The issue must be addressed in a practical way before we can develop a more universal appeal for soccer and football in Northern Ireland.
If one looks at the popularity of rugby and gaelic football, one can see that the community has to some extent walked away from soccer. We must examine that to see what is happening, not just in the Catholic or Protestant community, but in the whole community.
It would be useful to look at the emphasis that is put on field sports in our schools. Do our schools put too much emphasis on rugby and gaelic football to the detriment of soccer? I do not see a tremendous emphasis on soccer in any school, whether Catholic or Protestant, controlled or maintained. At both primary and secondary levels, in both secondary intermediate and grammar schools, we should look at the sort of emphasis that is placed on the development of soccer as part of the physical education agenda of those schools. If we do not get that base correct in our schools, then soccer is going to have a continuous uphill struggle. Therefore I suggest that we look at that very carefully.

Mr Danny Kennedy: I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in this important debate. I warmly commend the Minister for bringing it to the House and also for his commitment to soccer. It is welcome that a Northern Ireland Minister of the Assembly should be so committed to the issue of local football. The soccer strategy for Northern Ireland report and its introduction have been widely welcomed by those in the game.
I agree largely with what the Member for North Belfast, Mr Hutchinson, said earlier. For many years, soccer provided an essential community outlet for youngsters in Northern Ireland to get away from and break out of sectarian strangleholds. It granted them the opportunity to employ their talents and show their sporting skills in a positive way, rather than engaging in other activities.
The Assembly and the community in Northern Ireland owes soccer a great debt and should be in a position to repay some of that debt.
We have a great sporting tradition, particularly in soccer, in Northern Ireland. Peter Doherty, Danny Blanchflower — whom, allegedly, I am called after — Pat Jennings and George Best all crossed the sectarian divide. They all played with passion and pride for their clubs and for Northern Ireland. I have always regarded Windsor Park as the home of local soccer and as the national stadium of Northern Ireland. It has never caused me a problem to go there, along with people from all religions and of no religion.
I remember in 1981, in the dark days of this Province, when other events were taking place, the Northern Ireland soccer team provided a real boost for people of both communities and all traditions with its exploits on the field. The team of Martin O’Neill, Sammy McIlroy, Gerry Armstrong and Willie Hamilton provided a cross- community element that was worthy of great support and touched a raw nerve in the passion of local football. That team lifted the spirits and the morale of people in Northern Ireland. I am satisfied that the team and the fans who supported it were made up of the Catholic and Protestant communities in Northern Ireland.
I am surprised and disappointed to hear negative comments from perceived Nationalist elected representatives who are not able to give their support to the Northern Ireland international team. That is a huge mistake. It is incumbent on all public representatives to show proper leadership.
I have heard Kieran McCarthy, the Member for Strangford, on a number of occasions holding forth on the issue of sectarianism. I am not aware, and perhaps Mr McCarthy at some stage will inform the House, what his involvement and commitment to local soccer has been. Is it simply to grab a cheap and easy headline at the expense of those who love and cherish football? I sometimes wonder if Kieran McCarthy would know if a ball were blown up or stuffed, given some of his less informed comments.

Mr Kieran McCarthy: I did not play for Ards, but I certainly played —

Ms Jane Morrice: Order.

Mr Danny Kennedy: No doubt he will inform the House when he gets an available moment.
I have some concern that attempts are being made to undermine Windsor Park as the national stadium of Northern Ireland. We should recognise the very strenuous efforts made by the International Football Association (IFA) and others and Linfield Football Club in creating neutral conditions and being actively opposed to sectarianism at Windsor Park. I firmly believe that Windsor Park should continue to be developed as the national stadium for Northern Ireland.
Mention of the national stadium project brings forward the idea that it can be a multisport facility. There are considerable objections from the GAA to that. The playing of any other code would appear to rule out the GAA’s sharing a multi-purpose stadium. However, that remains to be seen.
I will say in respect of Alban Maginness’s comments on the GAA that it is not unfair to remind him that Gaelic sport is almost exclusively Catholic and Nationalist. That is a fair point to raise, and to draw to his attention, when he makes a comparison with local soccer.
A plea should be made and supported for available moneys to be provided to local clubs. I am thinking of Irish League clubs, intermediate clubs, youth clubs — indeed, the full range. I include in that Newry Town football club, Armagh City football club and Loughgall in my constituency. A range of activity is provided, week in, week out, day in, day out, to develop young people’s soccer skills and give them an outlet for their abilities.
I want to see schools’ football and the football of other leagues cherished and developed. I take the point raised by Alban Maginness that in our schools, a greater emphasis should, perhaps, be placed on local soccer by those in charge. Every encouragement should be given. Broadly speaking, I welcome the strategy. I wish the Minister well and trust that something will be done to preserve and cherish local football.

Mr Oliver Gibson: I welcome this report as an interim move. I am rather disappointed that it did not start with the Taylor report of twelve years ago, which is generally regarded as the vision statement for football. It is disappointing to find that PricewaterhouseCoopers did not seem to be aware of it.
I was rather taken aback by the fact that in the executive summary, the report offers no short-term or long-term solutions, nor does it give an estimate of costs. It is hoped that a strategy will emerge from within the sport itself. That was disappointing, given that it was supposed to be an exhaustive exercise in finding out what was going on in local soccer.
I do not want to speak about professional teams in the Irish Premier League. I want to speak about rural teams that often take their names from townlands, teams such as the Dunbreen Rovers, Killen, Killymore, Derg Valley and Beragh Scorchers. These are really the people who live football. They are not paid, but they play a game weekly. Members who talk about the decline of football should be very aware that in the west of the Province the clamour is for an adequate pitch.
In Strabane or Omagh council areas, there is a queue of people each Monday morning to book football pitches, but there are never enough available. There is a great demand, which means that instead of soccer’s being on the decline, it is still the most popular sport.
I am asking the Minister for some very simple help, so that rural football teams in the west of the Province can have changing rooms and shelter at a match. We are not asking for seated stadiums. We are simply asking that football, which is part of the healthy living encouraged by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and so much enjoyed by young people, be promoted.
I am certain that the seven big premier clubs can look after themselves. They can get the money to create an image and can get the sponsorship that will help them develop their talents. Their talent base depends upon the people for whom I am lobbying this afternoon — the little rural clubs. Those clubs create the pool of people to supply the larger clubs.
Why has there not been a development officer appointed to help with the form filling and with developing the clubs in the west of the Province. A school of excellence should be set up in Tyrone and Fermanagh, where there is a very good league. Two or three pages in the local papers are devoted to the activities of the local soccer team every week.
In Omagh, we used to have a very popular competition, called the Battisti Cup. On Saturday afternoons, the whole farming community stopped its work and went to Omagh showgrounds to see all the local football teams compete in the Battisti Cup. The sectarian activity of the IRA killed the Battisti Cup in the 1970s. Because those groups were threatened, the next tranche of lottery funding should be given to local football.
I have already told the Minister that, in West Tyrone, the GAA got 49% of the money, and soccer got 4%. We all know that the GAA is sectarian and exists exclusively for one community. On the other hand, soccer is cross- community, and the next tranche of money should restore the balance and allow teams such as Dunbreen Rovers, Newtownstewart Rovers, Killymore Rovers, Killen Rovers and Beragh Scorchers to have basic facilities such as changing rooms. That would enable small rural clubs to remain active and would do more to promote football than many of the major professional clubs do. The small clubs really make a contribution, and I encourage the Minister to provide the basic support needed to enable football to thrive.

Mr Fraser Agnew: I welcome the opportunity to discuss local soccer. I am heavily involved in soccer at all stages. On Saturday mornings, I am involved in a soccer academy involving 200 primary school children and six teams, which is completely mixed, both the coaching staff and the children themselves. We take part in soccer festivals, involving teams from all over the United Kingdom and from across the border. On Saturday afternoons, I write about soccer for some of the local papers. I watch teams who play in the first and second divisions.
There is not much wrong with football in Northern Ireland. I hear uninformed discussion about the state of the local game. There are many problems in the game, and the people involved in soccer are aware of them.
I do not see sectarianism as a problem in the local game. If Members want to know how to make money out of sectarianism, let them go to Glasgow and see what happens there, and they can see how money is made out of racism in soccer if they go to parts of England. Those problems do not exist in local football.
For parents who want to bring their children to a local soccer game the biggest problem is foul language. That is a bigger problem than the perceived problem of sectarianism.
I have travelled to soccer grounds all over the Province reporting on games. I have gone to Donegal Celtic, and there were no problems, even though they made sure that I knew that they knew who I was. Some weeks ago I was at Lurgan Celtic, and I faced no problems there. The club was playing Linfield Swifts in one of the cup competitions. The Linfield team had no difficulty going there, and the Lurgan Celtic people had no difficulty accepting them because they were united in one thing — football. They were all passionately involved in soccer.
I accept that Lurgan Celtic people are all Roman Catholics who live in a Roman Catholic area. That is expected in Northern Ireland. I do not go along with the talk that sectarianism is one of the big problems in local soccer.
The Irish Cup Final was a glorious occasion. There was a bigger crowd there than would be at an international football match. I wonder why. It is nonsense to say that people are staying away from international matches because of sectarianism or because they are at Windsor Park. The product on display is what is keeping the fans away. They do not see the big names. They do not see the George Bests or the Martin O’Neills playing in a Northern Ireland shirt. Those are the sort of players who attract people to a game. Perhaps if England came to Windsor Park, the crowds would go to see Manchester United players playing in an England shirt. That is what attracts people to games. Sectarianism does not keep people away from games.
At present great things are happening in the local soccer scene, particularly at junior level. There are soccer academies from one end of the Province to the other — not just the one that I am involved in. We were tied up with Coventry City for a long time, and then the Football Association in its wisdom decided that soccer academies should not exist outside a 90-mile radius of a soccer ground. Most of the premier division teams in England can get round that.
The soccer academy that I am involved in has sent several players to Coventry City. Two children that I helped coach have signed for Coventry City. They were coached from when they were seven and eight until they were 15 and 16 years old. Two of them at 17 years of age are now on Coventry City’s books, and that is very satisfying. All over the Province, from the north-west to Fermanagh, clubs are heavily involved in coaching children in soccer. We can take tremendous satisfaction from that.
Some Members may be surprised that I was on Cliftonville’s books. I stayed there for about a year until the late Davy Bennett told me that I was too small and too light and that Cliftonville was letting me go. I ended up playing for Brantwood for two years until it more or less told me the same thing. I ended up playing for Harland & Wolff Welders and the Civil Service in the amateur league, so I know the local game.
There are good things at all levels of the game: the soccer academies; the coaching; and the involvement of children. Linfield has a tremendous cross-community scheme with Dundalk and has formed Dunfield. It is working. Linfield is bringing children from both sides of the border to play football. Religion does not come into it. The children just want to play soccer. Those schemes are starting to pay off, and that can be seen through the tournaments and soccer academies. Skills are being developed.
I would be foolish, and it would be wrong of me were I not to acknowledge that there are some difficulties in the local game. However, I do not see those difficulties in the way that others see them. At premier division and, perhaps, first division level many of the difficulties have more to do with how the clubs are run. There is a lack of business acumen in the game. In the area that I come from, teams such as Larne, Ballyclare Comrades and Carrick Rangers all have grave financial difficulties. Those difficulties, how they have been managed and the resultant court cases have been documented, and this is not the only area with problems.
There is an argument that some clubs in east Antrim should amalgamate. However, I am not sure if those clubs will want to give up their status. Larne will always want to be Larne; Ballyclare Comrades will always want to be Ballyclare Comrades; and Carrick Rangers will always want to be Carrick Rangers, so holding on to what we have is one of the local difficulties.
It would be wrong not to acknowledge those difficulties. Player’s demands have been too great, and they have been paid too much money. However, that is changing, because there is no longer money in the game, and the stadiums are not as they should be.
So much nonsense is talked about the local game. We went through a period where people wanted to see a premier division club coming to Belfast. That was pie in the sky. It was absolute nonsense. Local football associations determine where teams play. When Derry City wanted to opt out of the Irish League they had to get permission from the IFA. That also applies to teams outside the IFA’s jurisdiction who wanted to play outside their own local association — they have to get permission to do so.
Bringing in a premier division team was never going to work, and there were other reasons involved. For instance, Wimbledon — who have been relegated in any case — could have been playing at home against some awful team. The following week they could be playing away. There would not have been any continuity.
It is more important that money is poured into existing stadiums before we think of building a new national stadium. Plenty of them need to be upgraded, and they need to be brought up to the standard set out in the Taylor report, much of which has not been implemented in Northern Ireland. This has helped to create some of the hardship, aside from the difficulties arising from the way some of the clubs have been run. Malfunctioning and maladministration have taken place.
On the other hand, Danny Kennedy mentioned Armagh City and Loughgall football clubs — two junior teams that are exceptionally well structured and well run. They have poured money into their grounds and their clubs; they have new stadiums and new dressing rooms. On Saturday I visited my old club, Brantwood, who are building a new dressing room — although they need a new team more than a new dressing room. Therefore some clubs are progressing and are looking at the idea of involving children from the surrounding areas.
When I was young and played football I was lucky if I got a warm bath. Sometimes, running water was a luxury. I had to wash in the river on many occasions. Sometimes that applied to those of us who were playing at a reasonable level. I remember when I played at Brantwood — and perhaps I should not reminisce in this fashion — we had a Nissen hut and a communal bath. The water was freezing most of the time, and 22 players were jumping into it. Unmentionable parts were turning blue with the cold — so you had to get out pretty quickly. All of that has changed, and no one would dream of going into a dressing room on a park pitch that did not have a proper warm shower.
Some questions have to be asked about the task force. Why have Martin O’Neill, Sammy McIlroy and Iain Dowey not attended a single meeting? Sammy McIlroy is the manager of the international soccer team. I believe he has resigned. Is it because he has an interest in what might happen when the task force report comes out? I am disappointed that the manager of the Northern Ireland football team did not attend a single meeting.
When David Hilditch and I attended the soccer strategy weekend in Newcastle, it was interesting to note that some of the people from the IFA were reluctant to join us. There was no sign of the international team manager, yet the former manager, Brian Hamilton, was there. He took part in the discussion and the debate. He paid his own way over and certainly went up in a lot of people’s estimation. Where was the Northern Ireland team manager?
The game needs to be restructured and reorganised, and I am hoping that the task force will address some of those issues. The biggest difficulty is that the people involved in the game need to look at the game itself. Perhaps the task force report can help those people to change the game from within.
There is a lack of business acumen, and that is one of the most important aspects of the local game that needs to be addressed. Someone has come up with the daft idea that we need a 20-league structure. That is not going to happen. Things like that will not help the game.
Football will continue to flourish in Northern Ireland. Thousands of people will still play soccer on a Saturday morning or afternoon — if we are worried about attendances we may have to vary the times of the kick-offs, as my Friend Mr Billy Hutchinson suggested. I am not sure whether that would be the answer. I am quite happy to go to Windsor Park on a Saturday afternoon, as I have a season ticket there. However, more often than not I am on the terraces at Loughgall, Armagh City, Brantwood, Dundela, Carrick Rangers and Larne, covering those games for the local papers. I enjoy doing that, and it gives me an insight into the difficulties that exist in a great game.
We need more money to improve the stadiums, and we also need business astuteness in the clubs, but there is no sense pouring money into clubs if they are not going to handle their affairs correctly. Members know what I am talking about.

Mr Derek Hussey: Does Mr Agnew agree that in the overall restructuring, the junior intermediate clubs must be involved and that the senior clubs should be liaising more with other clubs? I would also like to take the opportunity of correcting one of Mr Gibson’s statements. He talked about the lack of a development officer in the Fermanagh and Western league. I assure him that Mr Trevor Erskine, the IFA development officer in that area, works with all the clubs Mr Gibson mentioned and does an excellent job.

Mr Fraser Agnew: Mr Erskine has also worked with women’s football, and he has probably got more kick out of that than the other sort of football. He played for Glentoran and Dungannon Swifts at one time.
Restructuring is important. The Irish Football Association employs 27 people to run the international team and the Nationwide Irish Cup. The other associations such as the County Antrim FA, the North-West FA, the Mid-Ulster League and the Fermanagh and District all run their own tournaments. One of the IFA’s worries in restructuring into a single body is what would happen to all those tournaments. It does not believe that it has the resources or staff to manage all of that.
Football has an important part to play in developing and securing its own future. I fear that there are too many people in the game who are not forward thinking and who want to hold on to their own positions. I have some doubts about what the report from the task force may do. I hope it will encourage the football authorities in Northern Ireland to take the necessary steps to secure the future of local football.
There is no doubt about the future of football in general. More and more children are playing the game than have ever played it before; there are more coaching schemes, and there are more qualified coaches. There are many good things that can secure its future if we can sort out the problems in structure and organisation at the head of affairs in the local game. We need to get rid of some of the dead wood.

Mr Michael McGimpsey: There has been a great deal of interest and passion in this motion, as I anticipated. Many points have been made, and while I noted them, it will be difficult to respond to all of them. Mr Gibson made the point — although I note that he is not present — that he was disappointed because the report came up with no long- or medium-term solutions or costings.
He was mistaken, because this is not the end of the process; it is a progress report on where we are right now. We have had a widespread consultation process with the stakeholders. We had a workshop in February; we have a report, and we are going forward with a number of issues.
It is important to tell Mr Billy Hutchinson that the costs involved are not attributed to consultants, but they have been incurred in the consultation process and the conference, and they reflect the fact that we went out to meet the community at a number of venues in Northern Ireland. We consulted with grass-roots supporters, stakeholders, the IFA, the Irish Football League and representatives of schoolboy and youth soccer. We looked at areas such as women’s soccer and access for those suffering from disabilities. This has been a widespread consultation. It has not been a small subject to deal with, and it has taken time.
I agree that we expected to be ready to publish our draft strategy now. We are about three months late. The reasons are the size of the subject and the number of topics that have been raised. Most of the topics that have been raised this morning are issues that we are familiar with. It is important that we do this properly.
Mr Billy Hutchinson talked about the Taylor report and the moneys that flowed from it for football in England, Scotland and Wales, amounting to some £500 million or £600 million. The point is that all that money has been spent. It is gone. That money came primarily from the football pools. When the National Lottery came in, the pools revenue went down. By the time we came into operation here about 18 months ago and started chasing the money, it had largely been dissipated.
We are now in a new situation. We have opportunities under the National Lottery, which provides a portion of funding to sport, including football. However, it is true to say that we are left to our own devices to some extent. On keeping funding moving, we are looking at presenting business cases to the Department of Finance and Personnel. We do not expect it or the Assembly to provide all the moneys, but we will be making business cases on funding in the future.
Points were made about the development of rural pitches and playing fields and the smaller and intermediate clubs. I stress — particularly to Members who are local councillors — that the Recreation and Youth Service (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 requires each district council to be responsible for the development of adequate sports and recreation facilities in its own area. It would be appropriate for Members to talk to their local councillors and make those representations to their local councils. It is unfortunate that local councils often do not discharge their responsibilities, but members of those councils come in here and expect the Assembly to do it for them.
Mr ONeill made a point about the good practice of the Belfast Giants. The Belfast Giants ice hockey team has been a spectacular success, and it has exceeded all expectations. It is important to say that the Belfast Giants are the beneficiaries of a £45 million, state-of-the-art stadium. That is one of the reasons why they are doing so well. Currently almost anything that goes on in the arena does well, whether it be ice hockey or some other form of entertainment. The stadium does a lot for the game of ice hockey, but it also gives us a benchmark to measure the standards that we are aiming for. It demonstrates that families will go out to watch live sports providing the facilities are of the standard that they have come to expect.
A number of areas have been highlighted by the strategy process — for example, media coverage, community development, how to get families in and the creation of a vision for football. These have all been touched on. It was wrong for Mr Agnew to say that there was a great deal of uninformed comment. I have to point out that the members of the strategy group of the advisory panel are not uninformed.
Consultations through the IFA, IFL, schoolboy soccer, youth and intermediate soccer were very widespread. The Sports Council and education and library boards were also involved. It is wrong to say that those consulted were largely uninformed — it is quite the opposite. As a result, we have a very comprehensive agenda and set of issues to deal with.
The Taylor report, as quoted by Mr Hutchinson, said that a vision for soccer was needed. This is about where we want football to be in 5, 10 or 20 years’ time. What are the issues, and how do we tackle them? What are the problems, and how do we solve them? That is what the process is about, not least because football is something of value.
As I said earlier, the IFA is the fourth oldest football organisation in the world. England formed the first association, followed by Scotland, Wales and then here. Football is part of our culture and heritage. It also goes beyond Northern Ireland and is of international value.
I believe strongly that sport does a great deal for our image and self-esteem at home and abroad, and how we conduct ourselves in sport is very important. That is one of the reasons why the advisory panel is looking at best practice in other countries.
The panel went to France to look at their football academies. They are the present European champions and world champions. The panel is seeking to replicate that type of success here. A UK sports institute, which is part of the UK-wide network of institutes of sporting excellence, is planned in Jordanstown, where football will be one of the key sports.
I cannot answer all of the points, because there were so many. However, it is heartening to see such a widespread interest in the House. Indeed, only Sinn Féin failed to make a response. All other parties see football as important and as something that is part of the whole community, regardless of an individual’s background.
Mr Alban Maginness and Mr McCarthy mentioned sectarianism in sport. The reason why football may suffer is that the two communities come together in football. They do not come together in Gaelic, because that largely involves one community only. In Gaelic sport, passions are roused, and there are, perhaps, instances of unsportsmanlike behaviour, but you do not get the same level of passion that you do in soccer, because soccer is an interface sport. We all feel strongly about soccer, and that is why it has played such an important role over the past 30years and has such an important role to play in the future. It is something that gives us all a common purpose.
Other members, such as Danny Kennedy, talked about the future of Windsor Park and of a national stadium. An international sports stadium is one of the nine areas in the cocktail and is a matter for discussion. Such a facility would be greatly helped by the inclusion of rugby, Gaelic and athletics. However, it may not be possible to include those sports.
Gaelic sports may want to develop their own grounds — they have yet to give us a formal response. Rugby wants to leave Ravenhill but needs to determine its future yet. It is difficult to see how athletics could be merged into an international stadium while retaining the atmosphere required by international football.
We all feel passionately about this, and it has excited great interest among the general public. You only have to look at the attendances and responses we received when we took the travelling roadshow around Northern Ireland, and members of the public discussed the subject with the advisory panel. We hope to have that process completed by September. We will then compile a draft strategy, which will go for consultation to provide us with the action plan. We must get consensus.
Billy Hutchinson said that we should tell the IFA and the IFL what is going to happen and how things are going to be — but that is not the way forward. We have to come to a consensus on this. The football family has a common purpose, which is to make the sport thrive; to reinforce it, sustain it, and improve it. It is not for me or for the House to tell the IFA or the IFL how to improve their sport. Our task is to facilitate discussion and to help and support them in their endeavours to reinforce their sport. — [Interruption]. I am sorry I did not pick up the comment that was made from a sedentary position. I do not know what was said.
It is important that we go for consensus and not prescription. Generally speaking, prescription is counterproductive.

Mr Billy Hutchinson: I said that if we wait for the IFA and the IFL to have some sort of consensus, we will still be discussing this issue in 20 years time. We need to be prescriptive.

Mr Michael McGimpsey: Although the proof of the pudding will be in the eating — and we have to see this strategy evolve towards the end of the year — it is fair to say that the IFA and the IFL have played a very important part in our discussions so far. I am very optimistic about getting something out of this approach that will provide us with consensus. I do not believe that it will take 20years for the IFA and the IFL to reach agreement. I have been very heartened by the number of areas that they agree on and by the ideas that they have suggested. Although they have a conservative image I have been heartened by their inventiveness, creativity and approach. It is often a matter of bringing ideas and people together, and that is what we are about. In September we expect to be in a position to bring forward a draft action plan for discussion. I look forward to listening again to the views of Members.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That this Assembly notes the publication of the report ‘Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland – views of the stakeholders’ and notes the progress made on the development of the strategy.
Sitting was suspended at 2.13 pm.
On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Sir John Gorman] in the Chair) —

Education
Moneydarragh Primary School

3. asked the Minister of Education to outline when capital funding will be made available for the provision of a new build facility at Moneydarragh Primary School, Annalong, County Down.
(AQO1506/00)


: Subject to resources, capital funding can be made available for projects when economic appraisals and sufficient planning have been completed. Moneydarragh Primary School is one of a number of primary schools awaiting completion of an economic appraisal to determine how the school’s future accomodation needs can be met. My Department has identified a programme of economic appraisals for maintained schools in the business year 2001-02. I am pleased to say that Moneydarragh is included in the list of projects.


I am sure that the Minister is aware from his departmental records that the number of pupils at Moneydarragh has increased quite substantially since 1999. I did not quite catch what he said about the extent to which the appraisal has been carried out. What progress has been made, for instance, in the last three months, and can the Minister give a firm assurance that Moneydarragh will be included in next year’s new starts programme for capital expenditure?


It is vital that we go through the economic appraisal. When we do, planning for the project will proceed so as to ensure that the scheme can be considered for inclusion in any new starts announcement. There are procedures to be followed, and it is vital that the economic appraisal is carried out as quickly as possible so that whatever planning difficulties exist can be overcome. Once we do that, Moneydarragh Primary School will be included for consideration along with the others, and the Member will understand that there are many competing demands.


Has the commander noted the number of times that capital spending has been raised at Question Time and the widespread dissatisfaction there is over his handling of money for that purpose? Does he understand the disquiet, especially in the Unionist community — although I note that a number of Nationalist representatives have also raised the issue — over the discrepancies in the way that he has allocated capital building funds? When you compare last year’s allocations to Protestant schools with those to Catholic schools, you find that the ratio was three to one. This year the ratio was twice that, and the Executive programme funds show that the funding was 10 times greater for schools that cater mostly for the Catholic community. Is the difference in the state of the buildings so great that he can justify those anouncements that he makes year after year? Perhaps he can also tell us why half the money spent this year went to areas where four seats are being targeted by Sinn Fein in the election in the west of the Province?


When the Member refers to me by my proper title I will give him an answer.


I call Mr Armstrong.


The Minister has been asked a question. The Minister has also admitted that he was a commander. Therefore, whether it is Minister or commander, IRA/ Sinn Féin, I would have thought, makes little difference.


Mr Wilson, you are out of order. You have behaved improperly in the manner in which you addressed the Minister. I am not surprised that he has used his position and authority not to answer.
I call Mr Armstrong.


I would have thought —


You are out of order.
I call Mr Armstrong.


It is most unreasonable of you to defend the Minister against —


Please sit down, Mr Wilson. You are out of order.


You, as Deputy Speaker and as a Unionist, find it more in keeping to defend a member of IRA/Sinn Féin, who has admitted that he is a commander, rather than have him answer the question that many people in the Unionist community want answered.


Thank you.
I call Mr Armstrong.


Will the Minister tell us how he intends to redress the financial difficulties facing rural schools, particularly those with small numbers of pupils?


I am not sure that this relates to the question posed by Mr McGrady. We are continually reviewing our approach to all of these matters. The issue of small rural schools is something in which I have a keen interest. In fact, I have been looking at this since I took up this position. Many rural schools have problems and difficulties, and I appreciate the huge contribution that rural schools make. I also know and understand that there are difficulties in those schools in relation to levels of funding. In conjunction with CCMS and the education and library boards, we are continuously looking at how we can alleviate whatever difficulties exist.
The other point is that the small schools support factor in the local management of schools (LMS) formula targets resources at small schools. We have a paper out for consultation at present, and I have no doubt that this is an issue that will be addressed in the course of that. It is vital that as many people as possible contribute, as this consultation is going to make a very important contribution towards ensuring that there is fairness and equality in school funding.

New Targeting Social Need

6. asked the Minister of Education to outline how he intends to skew resources to those most in need under new targeting social need in the next six months.
(AQO1516/00)


My Department’s actions in relation to targeting social need are already set out in the recently published ‘Making it Work, the New TSN Annual Report’. The action plan covers all of my Department’s business areas and demonstrates that the education service already targets social need in a range of ways.
Among these initiatives is the TSN element of LMS. Targeting social need is an important element in school funding and is directed at need wherever it arises. In determining the level of resources to the school sector, 5% of the budget is presently top-sliced and distributed on the basis of levels of free school meals entitlement. In the year 2001-02 the total amount distributed in this way will be £40 million. I have also provided an additional £1 million for TSN from the £20·36 million budget addition for schools announced in February.
The consultation document on a common funding formula, launched last month, proposes an increase in the amount reserved for New TSN and greater emphasis on indicators of educational need in tandem with free school meals entitlement as a measure of social deprivation. No decisions — and it is very important that I stress this — have yet been taken in relation to this, and I look forward to the responses to the consultation document.


Does the Minister agree that the new TSN money is really old money dressed up as new, and does he accept that raising this from 5% to 5·5% is totally insufficient to have any real impact on the problem?


I do not agree that it is old money dressed up as new. At present 5% of the total schools’ recurrent budget is top-sliced to target social need, and I intend to increase that amount. It is also important to stress that people should understand that this is 5% on to the LMS formula is only one element among a wide range of TSN programmes supported by my Department, including the schools support programme, the group one schools initiative, the special educational needs code of practice, education outside schools, support for travellers, pupils for whom English is an additional language and the pre-school education expansion programme. With school budgets under continuous pressure, the additional £4 million put into TSN, which represents a 10% increase, is significant, and I am committed to allocating more resources to targeting social need if that is necessary or if the Executive make additional resources available. I have not made a final decision about that or any of the other matters dealt with in the consultation document. I will listen very carefully to any proposal on any of those matters.


Can the Minister confirm that targeting social need is a priority within his Department and outline the personnel and resources dedicated to taking this forward?


It is certainly a priority within my Department. I cannot give specific details of the numbers of personnel involved, but I will gladly write to the Member with the information.


Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Is the Minister prepared to consider a substantial increase in TSN funding if the consultation proves that this is necessary?


Yes, I would certainly be prepared to do that, and I think it is vital that this House understands that no final decisions have been taken in relation to TSN. It is important that everyone who has a contribution to make does so, as there is a real opportunity for people to influence the outcome of the consultation process.

Executive Committee

7. asked the Minister of Education to detail (a) when he will next meet with the Executive Committee and (b) what issues he intends to bring to the attention of that Committee.
(AQO1497/00)


I plan to attend the next meeting of the Executive Committee, which is scheduled for 14 June. As for the business items I intend to bring to the Committee, I refer the Member to my answer to AQO371/00.


Since the Minister’s confession that he is a commander in the Provisional IRA, can he inform the House whether he intends to inform the Executive when they next meet — [Interruption]


Would the Member keep to the subject under debate and omit questions such as that.


Does he intend to inform the Executive when they next meet whether he is still a commander in the Provisional IRA or whether he has relinquished that position? If he has not relinquished that position —[Interruption]


This is not relevant.


It is incompatible to be part of the Government and to be a member and commander of the Provisional IRA.


Will you kindly sit down while I am standing.


It is incompatible for him to remain in the Government for as long as he is a commander in the Provisional IRA.


You have opportunities to speak on such matters on other occasions but not when you are asking a question of the Minister.


The question allows that that be asked. The Minister has left himself open, given his answer to my first question and the fact that he is a commander in the Provisional IRA. I believe people are entitled to know whether he intends to give up that position or remain as a Minister.


Kindly sit down, Mr Paisley.


Does the Minister intend to listen to calls for an extension to the consultation period on the review of the LMS funding formula, and will he bring this to the attention of the Executive Committee?
Is the Minister aware that joint representations have been made to me, as Chairperson of the Education Committee, by the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), the Governing Bodies’ Association (GBA) and the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE) on the issue? How will he deal with the fact that incorrect information was published by his Department in the original document?


The issue is important to all of us. It is crucial that we complete the process of consultation as quickly as possible. I have set out a time span for that. I was made aware recently that there were concerns about the consultation period. The deadline of 29 June allows schools three months in which to respond. That is substantially in excess of the standard eight-week period for consultations.
Briefing conferences were held at the end of April in each board area to explain and clarify the proposals to schools and to chairs of boards of governors in order to assist them in framing their responses. Forms based on tick-box responses and further written commentaries, if desired, have been sent to all recipients of the document. Those measures should help ensure that schools can stay within the timescale. The end of June deadline is dictated by the school summer break and the need for sufficient time to consider the responses and discuss any revised proposals with the Education Committee and the Executive. Adequate time must be allowed to make the necessary changes to operational arrangements in the Department and boards to ensure the smooth implementation of a common formula in April 2002.
The publication of incorrect data was a mistake, and that was clearly acknowledged by the Department. All the interested parties were informed, and we have apologised for it.

Literacy and Numeracy

8. asked the Minister of Education why he has revised the targets for literacy and numeracy at Key Stage 1, 2 and 3 downwards and to indicate what plans he has to address this issue; and to make a statement.
(AQO1533/00)


As I explained to the Member in my letter of 26 April, the provisional literacy and numeracy targets set in 1998 had to be based on the results of only one year’s statutory assessment. They were therefore a best estimate of what might be achievable.
With four years’ assessment results now available, we considered that there were sufficient trend data to inform a review of the targets, most of which were, nonetheless, retained. In two cases, the provisional targets were unrealistic. First, the target for the number of pupils achieving level 4 and above in English at the end of Key Stage 2 has been revised from 80% to 77%. Secondly, the target for pupils achieving level 5 in mathematics up to the end of Key Stage 3 has been revised from 85% to 75%. Those changes are not an indication of a reduction in standards; rather, they represent more realistic targets, based on the additional information now available as a result of four years of statutory assessment.


I thank the Minister for his continuing interest in the issue. As we come closer to achieving full employment, employers are increasingly dependent on employees who may have serious literacy and numeracy problems. That information has been given to several Committees. Is the Minister aware that those employers have to organise their own classes in basic English and simple arithmetic? He must agree that that is totally unacceptable, given that we already have approximately 250,000 people with serious literacy and numeracy problems. Lowering targets is not the way forward.


I am aware of what has been said by people in business and industry. I share the Member’s concern. The Department is greatly concerned about the issue. There are several reasons for it, including the transfer procedure, which has been shown to have a negative impact on the motivation of pupils who fail to obtain a grammar school place, and the relevance of the curriculum at Key Stages 3 and 4. Both those issues are being reviewed.
The improving performance of the primary sector provides a firm foundation for improvements in the secondary sector. In order to get this right, it is important that we do the work at primary level and that we be involved in the different processes and projects that identify the difficulties. The contribution made by such things as the reading recovery programme is critical. When visiting primary schools recently, I have been impressed by the number of teachers involved in creating their own reading recovery programmes. I agree with the Member that there is still a considerable amount of work to be done. We are setting about that task.


Is the Minister satisfied with his evaluation of the existing policies to tackle the numeracy and literacy problems? What does he intend to do to put realistic targets in place?


I have recently taken a decision to put in place realistic targets that are achievable. It is important that we continue with the programmes that are available through the education and library boards, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools and other education sectors. I am satisfied that we are getting this right and that the programmes now in place can deal with the difficulty. There is much good work that can be done. I am satisfied that we are facing up to what is a clear educational problem that we must move to address as quickly as possible.


Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Why is progress slower than initially expected regarding literacy and numeracy in the secondary sector? What is the effect of that on underachievement at school leaving stage?


A great deal of it has to do with the impact of the transfer procedure. We have had discussion and debate on this subject recently. Many educationalists have gone on the record as identifying problems surrounding the 11-plus and our transfer procedure as a major factor in demotivating pupils who cannot gain a place at grammar school. We look forward to the proposals of the Burns review in October, and when we receive a copy of that review, we will look at the proposals and recommendations that have been made. All of that will directly address the issue raised by the Member.

Vandalism

9. asked the Minister of Education if he will seek increased financial assistance from the Executive to address the growing number of vandalistic attacks on local schools.
(AQO1531/00)


Vandalism costs will be taken into account in the next spending review. However, those costs are a drain on the resources available for the education sector. We must work with school authorities and local communities to help stamp out this problem.


Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Aire as a fhreagra. What was the cost of vandalism to our schools across the five education and library board areas last year? Does the Minister agree that school budgets cannot reasonably expect to withstand these additional costs?


The expenditure by boards amounted to slightly over £1 million. We have made additional funding available for school security: £4 million has been made available over the last four years specifically for that.
These have taken the form of access controls on doors, particularly to control visitor access, internal audio and visual monitoring systems and intruder alarms. The measures are largely directed towards personal protection of staff and pupils and are determined on the basis of risk assessments carried out by individual schools.
The measures are in addition to the more significant capital works undertaken by boards and individual schools to protect school buildings, which take the form of fencing, closed-circuit television (CCTV), external security lighting, security grilles and windows and the provision of security stores. We are very conscious of the fact that year-on-year there have been burdens on the education and library boards and other school sectors.
All of us deplore any attack on schools, wherever they are. It is vital that people understand the huge contribution that schools make to our society and that elected representatives and leaders in society make it absolutely clear to those who are involved in this disgraceful behaviour that they should desist.

Post-Primary Provision

11. asked the Minister of Education to outline his plans to proceed with progressive proposals for a new way forward for post-primary provision.
(AQO1535/00)


The independent review of post- primary education is due to report at the end of October. Following consultation on its findings and recommendations, my intention is to bring forward proposals for change early next year.


The Minister will be aware, as I am sure we all are, that the outcome of these discussions will have massive implications for the future shape of education in the North. Is he satisfied that by the time the recommendations in the report come through, the consultations will have been comprehensive enough?


The Gallagher and Smith research report of September 2000 entitled ‘The Effects of the Selective System of Secondary Education in Northern Ireland’ provided information on education in England, Scotland and a number of other European countries. Substantial knowledge of these systems, and of that in the South, also resides within the membership of the review body and the panel of education advisers. The review body has undertaken study visits to the South, Scotland, the Netherlands and Austria to experience their systems at first hand.
Everyone knows that the consultation has been the biggest by far on any educational issue in recent years. The review body has held over 25 public meetings, two open days to receive oral evidence, meetings with representatives of business and commerce and has received over 1,000 written submissions. There has been a huge public interest in the review body’s work, and there have been well over a quarter of a million hits on the official web site.
It has been a very intensive consultation process, and I am satisfied that we have done everything in our power to be as inclusive as possible, and to make it as easy as possible for everyone to contribute to what is undoubtedly the biggest issue in education that we face in coming times.


Will the Minister consider making funds available for transport in rural areas to get young people to school?


Mr Savage, is this relevant to the question?


Yes, very much so. I was thinking especially of families in the post-primary sector in rural areas.


Transport is available. If the Member is dissatisfied with any aspect of that I will gladly listen to any representations he wishes to make.

School Governing Bodies and Education and Library Boards: Gender Balance

12. asked the Minister of Education to give his assessment of the gender balance on school governing bodies and education and library boards.
(AQO1511/00)


Women are underrepresented on schools’ boards of governors and on the education and library boards. My Department does not hold details of the gender balance of boards of governors and has a direct involvement in only 10% of the places. In the reconstitution undertaken in 1997, the Department of Education nominated 1,040 representatives, of which 419, some 40%, were women.


Will the Minister keep this situation monitored, bearing in mind the importance of the equality agenda? Will he also consider the underrepresentation of those from ethnic minorities on school boards?


We will certainly do that; it is vital to keep the underrepresentation of the ethnic minorities to the forefront of our minds at all times. The Member is correct in pointing out that there are huge responsibilities on all Departments, under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and the equality issues that flow from that, to ensure that we deal with the issue in a proper fashion.
As a Minister, I am very much for encouraging everyone in our society to recognise the rights of women and ethnic minorities, and my Department is consistently pointing out to everyone in the education sector the need to move forward and to make progress as quickly as possible.

Pre-School Provision

14. asked the Minister of Education to detail (a) the current level of pre-school provision and (b) whether he is confident that he will meet his target of full provision by 2003.
(AQO1520/00)


In 1997, there were funded places for 45% of children in their final pre-school year. As a result of the pre-school education expansion programme, the level has risen to 75% in this academic year, and it is expected to exceed 85% in the year 2001-02. I remain very confident that by March 2003 a place will be available for all children, whose parents wish it, in their final pre-school year


Time is up — [Interruption].


On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Standing Order 19 refers to Questions. Earlier, during Question Time, you protected the Minister of Education and enabled him to avoid answering a question that is pertinent to the capital spending for schools across the Province — an issue that many people in the Unionist community are concerned about. Could you please tell me — [Interruption].


Are you now making a party political broadcast?


No, I am not. I am asking a question.
The grounds on which you refused to have my question put were that I had not addressed the Minister as "Minister". Hansard will show that I had referred to his dual capacity as Minister and commander. Will you agree to scrutinise Hansard to see that the term "Minister" was used, and will you also inform the House which section of Standing Order 19 states that a Member must address a Minister by his proper title? Do you agree that his proper title is Minister and commander?


Standing Order 1(2) states
"The Speaker’s ruling shall be final on all questions of procedure and order."
I rule — and I have no reason to alter my view about it — that that rule applies here. Secondly, I ask you to address the Minister by his proper title. My ruling is final.


On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker — [Interruption].


Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I accept that your ruling is final, but your ruling must be based — [Interruption].


Mr McGrady has a point of order.


On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I ask you to read Hansard and to recall what happened during Question Time today. Standing Order 60(1)(g) describes how wilful disregard of the authority of the Speaker requires certain courses of action. Will you exercise that judgement in respect of the Member who has just spoken and of Ian Paisley Jnr and report to the Assembly as to whether there was a breach of due regard to the authority of the Speaker?


Standing Order 60(1) states
"The Speaker may, if any Member: persistently or wilfully disregards the authority of the Speaker order the Member to withdraw immediately from the Chamber and its precincts during the remainder of that day’s sitting and the Keeper of the House shall act upon any instructions as he/she may receive from the Speaker".
That ruling is final, and I am taking no more points of order from you, Mr Wilson. If you raise any more I shall ask you to take account of this and take the necessary action.


Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.


I am not taking any further points of order on this matter.


Mr Deputy Speaker, you have — [Interruption]


I am not engaged in an argument with you, Mr Wilson. I am ordering you not to raise further points of order.


Under which Standing Order did you rule my question out of order in the first place? I am entitled — [Interruption]


Mr Wilson, you are totally out of order, as I have told you on a number of occasions. I will rather humanely allow you to continue to sit here on the basis that you conduct yourself properly.

Health, Social Services and Public Safety
Ulster Hospital

1. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail the level of capital investment required at the Ulster Hospital.
(AQO1521/00)


Chuir Iontaobhas SSS Uladh agus Otharlann plean forbartha straitéiseach isteach a leagann amach moltaí ar infheistiú caipitil ag Otharlann Uladh. Tá mo Roinn ag cur bailchríche ar a measúnú ar an phlean, a mholann móruasghrádú na hotharlainne ar chostas de thart ar £98 milliún; móruasghrádú a chéimneofar thar seacht mbliana.
The Ulster Community and Hospital Health and Social Services Trust has submitted a strategic development plan which sets out proposals on capital investment in the Ulster Hospital. The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is finalising its assessment of the plan, which proposes a major upgrade of the hospital costing around £98 million phased over seven years.


Last year the Minister received a report on the capital needs of the Ulster Hospital. It is now May. Can the Minister tell the House when a decision is going to be made? That is what the people who use the hospital need to hear. Can the Minister tell the House how long it takes to read one report, given that her officials met with representatives of the Ulster Hospital throughout the drafting of it, and especially since the Health Department awarded itself £2 million to deal with it?
Is the Minister aware of how bad things are? The accident and emergency department at the Ulster Hospital was built in 1974 to accommodate 25,000 people. Today it is dealing with almost 80,000 people. Is the Minister aware that there are four patients lying on trolleys in one cubicle? Is that acceptable?


I thank the Member for her questions. At a meeting on 14 December 2000 with my officials, the Ulster Community and Hospital Health and Social Services Trust set out its strategic development plan for the Ulster Hospital. A draft of the plan was provided at the meeting, and the Department received copies of the finalised document on 10 January. The Department is urgently assessing the detail of the plan, and when that is completed I will consider the options available and announce my decision as soon as possible. That is in keeping with the normal timescale for looking at the details of plans of this complexity.
I recognise the urgent pressures to increase bed capacity at the Ulster Hospital, and £2 million has been earmarked in the public service agreement to fund an additional 20 adult beds at the hospital.
The trust has submitted an outline business case for the reinstatement of the Jaffa ward to provide that extra capacity. A decision will be taken following an announcement on the strategic development plan and after the individual business case has been assessed by Health Department officials. I am aware of the pressures on the hospital, and I will do everything in my power to ensure that this matter is advanced as speedily as possible.


The Ulster Hospital is so inundated with patients that there are four people in a cubicle where there should only be one. The same thing is happening in Craigavon Area Hospital.


You must refer only to the Ulster Hospital.


When does the Minister hope to alleviate the problems in the Ulster Hospital?


I refer the Member to my answer to Mrs Robinson.


I am aware that the Minister and her Department know of the current situation in the accident and emergency department of the Ulster Hospital. My Colleague and I were there two days last week during that awful time, as was the Minister’s permanent secretary. I believe that other Members also visited the hospital.
As Mrs Robinson has already stated, having seen the situation we urge the Minister to make sure that the timetable is expedited. A lot of things happened: some beds were supplied, and day wards were opened. I ask that this situation does not happen again.


I thank the Member for her comments and for the recognition that the permanent secretary of the Department visited the hospital to see the situation and to report to me at the end of last week. As I said to Mrs Robinson, I am very clear that we need to move as speedily as possible regarding this situation and, indeed, with other hospitals that are under pressure.
I reiterate that the situation has arisen through years of continuous and historic underfunding of health and personal social services here. The situation cannot be rectified overnight. Given the work that the Department has undertaken with the Ulster Community and Hospitals Trust and the strategic plan that is now in place, I am confident that we can make a start.
As I said to the Member on a previous occasion, the hospital staff have identified some elements to us as requiring particular attention. They identified an immediate need for the replacement of essential medical equipment and a back-up generator. They forwarded the details of the proposed replacement programme to my Department, the total cost being £1·48 million. I hope that we can move more speedily on this while taking forward the other aspects of the hospital’s needs.

Mobile Health Centres

2. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety whether she has any plans to introduce mobile health centres.
(AQO1510/00)


Níl rún agam ionaid sláinte taistil a thabhairt isteach. I have no plans to introduce mobile health centres.


I thank the Minister and her permanent secretary for their quick response when asked to witness the horrendous scenes at the Ulster Hospital. Let us hope that those scenes are never repeated. The Minister has already given us a commitment on that.
Mobile health centres would be of great benefit to the rural community in order to provide equality of access as well as good health services. Should the Minister not be pursuing more imaginative methods in the delivery of general health?


I have consulted widely on new arrangements for primary care in ‘Building the Way Forward in Primary Care’ That consultation has been completed, and there were no issues raised about mobile health centres or their use. When I have considered all of the responses I will decide on the future arrangements in primary care as quickly as possible.
At present there are a number of incentives to improve access to primary care services in rural areas. These include a rural practice payment scheme, which supports GPs in remote areas, a practice liablility payment scheme, which assists essential practices in isolated areas — doctors can be asked to dispense prescriptions for patients who have difficulty in obtaining their drugs and medicines.
There is an essential small pharmacy scheme, which gives help to pharmacies dispensing low numbers of prescriptions. There are outreach clinics that can bring hospital services to patients in rural areas. Boards can organise development schemes with GPs to improve services locally in response to local needs. We have taken a number of other points on board, as the Member will be aware, in terms of access to health services in rural areas, through the strategic review of the ambulance service, for example, and through the review of acute hospital services.

Executive Committee

3. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail (a) when she will next meet with the Executive Committee, and (b) what issues does she intend to bring to the attention of that Committee.
(AQO1496/00)


Beidh mé ag freastal ar an chéad chruinniú eile den Choiste Feidhmiúcháin, atá le bheith ann Déardaoin 14 Meitheamh. Mar a mhínigh mé sa fhreagra a thug mé ar a mhacasamhail de cheist Dé Luain 27 Samhain 2000, ní gnáth trácht poiblí a dhéanamh ar mholtaí atá le cur faoi bhráid an Choiste Feidhmiúcháin nó atá á machnamh aige.
I will be attending the next meeting of the Executive, which is scheduled for Thursday 14 June. As I said in my answer to a similar question on 27November2000, it is not the practice to make public comment on policy proposals that are to be brought to the Executive or are under consideration by it.


Given that the Minister has responsibility for health and public safety, does she intend to bring to the attention of her Executive Colleagues any concerns that one of them is an IRA commander? If so, does she believe that that is compatible with being part of the Government of Northern Ireland? Will she take this opportunity to inform the House of her position in the same organisation as her ministerial Colleague?


Minister, since this is not your area of responsibility, you are not required to answer that question.

Western Health and Social Services Board Area (Psychiatrists)

4. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail her plans to (a) increase the number of psychiatrists in the Western Health and Social Services Board area and (b) reduce the waiting time for general practitioner referrals for this service. And to make a statement.
(AQO1515/00)


Tá na boird sláinte agus seirbhísí sóisialta freagrach as measúnú riachtanas áitiúil a ndaonraí agus as ceannach seirbhísí le riar ar na riachtanais sin. Tá leibhéil éagsúla gairmithe meabhairshláinte riachtanach do riachtanais éagsúla, lena n-áirítear síciatraithe, síceolaithe, altraí agus teiripithe saothair.
Health and social services boards are responsible for assessing the local needs of their population and purchasing the services to meet those needs. Different needs require different numbers of mental health professionals, including psychiatrists, psychologists, nurses and occupational therapists. The Western Health and Social Services Board is piloting a project on mental health pressures that will help to inform the best model to meet its local needs. That model should indicate the number of mental health professionals required locally, including psychiatrists, and indicate how best to reduce waiting lists for those services.


I welcome the Minister’s commitment to a pilot scheme in the Western Board area. My concern is that there should be sufficient funding available to ensure that the level of psychiatric cover will not be allowed to fall below such a critical level again and that GPs will not have to wait for up to seven months for a referral.


Mental health services throughout the North have traditionally been underfunded, and pressures have been increasing as more people use the services. There are limited resources as well as competing priorities, which the Executive have to decide upon. The health and social services boards and I believe in local provision and in the need to improve mental health services. The Western Health and Social Services Board is aware of the need to develop its mental health services and to make the most of the resources available.
I have allocated an additional £2 million this year toward the development of new mental health services. However, the effects of previous underfunding cannot be addressed overnight. I will also continue to argue the case for additional resources so that boards and trusts can continue to improve their delivery of services.


I am sure that the Minister is also aware of the impinging factor of the shortage of nurses. She will also be aware of the concerns currently being expressed by the Royal College of Nursing. I am not casting any aspersions on the nurses who have come from abroad to Northern Ireland, but how and when will the Minister address the problem of the shortage of nurses in the Western Board area?


I take it you refer to psychiatric nurses? Did you understand that, Minister?


Traditionally, the question has been asked about acute hospital services as opposed to mental health services and the specific point raised by Mrs Courtney. On the issue of the spread of mental health services in the community and acute hospital services, the Western Board is working in Limavady and Omagh to ensure that it has the information and the direction that it needs to take services forward. Nurses from abroad have not been taken into the mental health area as much as the acute hospital area.

Orthopaedic Consultants

5. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail what action she is taking to reverse the decline in the number of orthopaedic consultants in Northern Ireland.
(AQO1495/00)


Faoi láthair tá 35 mháinlia chomhairleacha ortaipéideacha anseo agus post ag 18 sainoiliúnaí. Thairg triúr lianna comhairleacha éirí as ar na mallaibh ach fanfaidh siad ina bpoist go ceann tamaill bhig eile. De na hoiliúnaithe atá ann, tá ceathrar iarrthóirí féideartha ann do na folúntais do lianna comhairleacha a d’fhéadfadh a bheith ann sna míonna seo chugainn.
Sna tosaíochtaí do ghníomhaíocht tá tiomantas ar leith seirbhísí a fhorbairt agus fógraíodh dhá phost i máinliacht dhromlaigh le deireannas.
Currently there are 35 consultant orthopaedic surgeons here and 18 specialist trainees in post. Three consultants have recently submitted their resignations but will remain in post for a further short period. Out of the current training pool there are four potential candidates for consultant vacancies that may arise over the next few months. A specific commitment to develop services in fractures and spinal surgery is contained in the priorities for action, and two consultant posts in spinal surgery have been advertised recently.


I know that the Minister accepts that there is a serious shortage of orthopaedic surgeons in Northern Ireland, especially in comparison with England and Scotland. Two young, recently appointed consultants have resigned to take up posts in England, while two others will job-share, which means that four young surgeons are leaving the National Health Service in Northern Ireland because they could not get adequate operating theatre and outpatient access in the Royal Victoria, Musgrave Park and Craigavon Area hospitals.
Even more importantly, it has recently been revealed that accident and emergency consultants in Craigavon and Antrim hospitals will cease to attend fracture clinics in those hospitals from 1 January 2002 in order to follow their speciality to Royal College standards. Does the Minister therefore accept that these actions will thrust the Northern Ireland orthopaedic service into a sudden, large and unplanned increase in workload, which could easily lead to a devastating reduction in elective orthopaedic surgery such as hip or knee replacement?


Dr Hendron has highlighted a wider problem — the shortage of consultants here, despite an increase of 22% since 1995. Difficulties remain in filling consultant posts in some specific services. With the numbers completing specialist training over the next three years, there is the potential for a further 10% increase in consultant numbers in general. Some local services are badly affected by the loss of even one consultant. Therefore, specialist medical staffing is reviewed regularly.
My officials have been working closely with trust and board personnel to alleviate the current acute staffing shortages. Clearly, the number of orthopaedic surgeons per head of population here is lower than in the NHS in Britain. We have been increasing the number of specialist trainees over recent years, and we will be keeping that under review.
I also understand that there have been difficulties in accessing bed and theatre availability caused by increased demand. The regional spinal surgery service at the Royal Victoria Hospital (RVH) will begin as soon as the theatres in phase one of the new RVH become fully operational. We hope that that will improve some aspects of the service. However, I totally accept that both foreseen and unforeseen changes are impacting on the service and that we need to keep the measures needed under constant review.


What action, other than apologising to patients, does the Minister propose to take to deal with the shortage of beds at the Ulster Hospital, Dundonald?


The question was about orthopaedic consultants. Do you want to make your question about that matter, or are you asking something that is not relevant?


It is relevant.


Is the Minister prepared to answer that question?


I fully answered all questions on the Ulster Hospital when I replied to Mrs Robinson. I refer the Member to those answers.


Does the Minister plan to create an orthopaedic consultancy post in the Southern Board area?


As I said, we are currently keeping the necessary numbers and locations under review. That is not my intention at present, but I can write to the Member when we have a clearer idea of the way forward.

Surgical Procedures: Waiting Times

6. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail (a) the waiting time for cardiac surgery in October 2000, and (b) the current waiting time.
(AQO1498/00)


8. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail her plans to reduce the waiting times for all surgical procedures in Belfast hospitals; and to make a statement.
(AQO1507/00)


Le do chead, a LeasCheann Comhairle, glacfaidh mé ceisteanna 6 agus 8 le chéile mar go mbaineann siad araon le hamanna feithimh.
With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take questions 6 and 8 together, as they both deal with waiting times.
Ag deireadh Mheán Fómhair 2000, bhí 591 duine ag fanacht le máinliacht chairdiach. De na daoine seo, bhí 437 ag fanacht níos lú ná 12 mhí chaighdeán na cairte. Ag deireadh Nollaig 2000, an dáta is déanaí dá bhfuil eolas ar fáil, bhí 570 duine ag fanacht agus 414 acu ag fanacht níos lú ná 12 mhí.
At the end of September 2000, 591 people were waiting for cardiac surgery, of whom 437 had been waiting for less than the Charter standard of 12 months. At the end of December 2000, which is the most recent information available, 570 people were waiting, with 414 people waiting for less than one year.
I am concerned about the length of time that people are having to wait for treatment. My proposals for action are set out in the framework for action on waiting lists and in the priorities for action. This year, I have set a target of a 50 % reduction in the number of people waiting for longer than the Charter standard and the complete elimination of such long waits by March 2003.
I also set a target for waiting lists to be reduced to 48,000 by March 2002, as a first step towards bringing the numbers down to 39,000 by March 2004. That reduction will have a direct impact on the length of time that people must wait.


Those are quite alarming figures. Many of the 160 people who have been waiting more than 12 months for cardiac surgery are dying because of the delay. We hear that targets for reduction are being set. How are those targets going to be achieved? How can the Minister demonstrate that those targets can be achieved under the current Administration?


With regard to the number of people who are waiting for operations, one of the factors is that much more can now be done for patients with heart disease, including those who have had previous operations, and the elderly. Consequently, the patients who have cardiac surgery tend to be older and sicker than was previously the case. They often need longer hospital stays in cardiac surgery and in intensive care in the few days following surgery. That has reduced the throughput of patients.
Recruitment and retention of nursing staff trained in cardiac surgery is also a major challenge. This is a very specialised area, and it is a professionally demanding one to work in. The cardiac surgery review is addressing the matter in detail, and it will advise on immediate and long-term actions to help to strengthen the nursing complement.
With regard to improving the situation for cardiac patients while the review has been taking place, I have allocated additional funding for supernumerary nursing posts in cardiac intensive care to support the existing staff and to allow additional nurses to receive specialised training. That will help to increase bed capacity and, therefore, the number of operations possible.
The boards have been using some of the extra waiting list moneys that I have allocated to offer cardiac surgery to patients who have been waiting for a long time for operations elsewhere. That also frees up capacity at the Royal Victoria Hospital for those who do not wish to travel. Angiography facilities will soon be open at Altnagelvin Hospital. That will increase overall capacity here for this diagnostic testing, and that will help to reduce waiting times.
I have also published a framework for action on reducing waiting lists. I refer MrPoots to the number of different actions contained in that. That will significantly impact on waiting lists in general as well as on waiting lists for this speciality.


I was surprised that questions 8 and 6 were grouped together, because there is not a great similarity between them. My surprise was confirmed by the Minister’s answer, which was primarily on question6. However, the Minister will share our concern that waiting lists appear to be extending and developing, and the problem is not being resolved. Hidden underneath that, there is a further waiting list to get on the waiting list for people awaiting serious and urgent operations.
The setting of targets is wonderful and grand, but there is no point in setting targets unless they are achievable. What new action has been taken to reduce this expanding waiting list? The hospitals are chock-a- block. People cannot even get into Belfast City Hospital, yet this weekend another ward was closed in the Downe Hospital —


You are going a little beyond the question.


The question is about waiting lists. These people are on waiting lists to get into Belfast City Hospital. They cannot get into Belfast City Hospital or the Royal Victoria Hospital, yet they are also being chucked out of the Downe Hospital. Where is it all going to end?


I thank the Member for his election speech and for his question. An extra £3million has been allocated this year for action on waiting lists. On top of that, last year’s non-recurrent allocation of £5million has been made recurrent, bringing the total additional resources available for action on waiting lists this year to £8million. That in itself will make a difference.
With regard to ensuring that the targets for reduction are achieved, the boards and trusts are bringing forward their waiting list action plans for 2001-02. I will want to be sure that practical and robust arrangements for achieving the reductions are in place. I will be closely monitoring progress during the year against the very specific points that were laid out for them in the framework that I issued in September 2000.
These include, for example, setting clear targets for reducing the number of patients waiting and the number of people who fail to keep appointments, thereby enabling others to have appointments. An improvement in efficiency should ensure that as many patients as possible are treated — for example, by making sure that waiting list information is up to date and that co-ordination of services is better, particularly between hospitals and the community. A number of other clinical, managerial and monitoring arrangements were laid out in my framework statement.
The particular ward in Downe Hospital that the Member refers to was opened in response to winter pressures. The observation ward was open only for the winter period, now at an end.


Can the Minister detail her plans to reduce the waiting times for brain and heart surgery? Can she confirm that placements can be made in Scottish hospitals more quickly than in hospitals here?


Concerning heart surgery, I refer to my answer to Mr Poots, unless the Member is perhaps talking about some other aspect that I missed. At present, it is easier to get surgery in this speciality in Scotland. That is why those who are willing to travel to Scotland for heart surgery are facilitated by the boards. That reduces the waiting list here for those who do not wish to travel.

Finance and Personnel

Question 10, in the name of Mr McMenamin, has been withdrawn and will receive a written reply.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease

1. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail his proposed discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning the allocation of consequential loss allowance for those affected by foot-and-mouth disease in the farming, tourist and commercial fields in Northern Ireland; and to make a statement.
(AQO1508/00)


Any new resources for Northern Ireland to address business hardship resulting from foot-and-mouth disease would arise only as a consequence of additional spending in England for that purpose. On that basis, we have established with the Treasury that approximately £1 million will be available for measures here. That will be comparable to rate relief measures in Great Britain.
As I have explained to the Assembly previously, the Executive and Departments have been working on preparing a suitable scheme. This scheme was agreed at the Executive meeting on 17 May and was announced by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister this morning in a priority written answer. I also sent details of the scheme to the Chairperson of the Finance and Personnel Committee, with copies to the Chairpersons of the Committees for Enterprise, Trade and Investment and Agriculture and Rural Development.


I welcome the written priority answer to my written priority question, explaining the grant aid in respect of rate relief. However, in view of his reply, can the Minister confirm that the hard-pressed businesses in Northern Ireland will get like for like with Great Britain? I assume that the £1 million to which he referred is based on the Barnett formula. Can he confirm that it will not be an all-time cap but that, if the £1 million does not fit the requirement, the Northern Ireland Executive will, with judicial management, address the shortfall and that no person will suffer unduly as a consequence of a lack of funding for that scheme?


I am happy to reassure the Member that the £1 million will come from the Treasury for this scheme to give businesses here similar benefit to the rate relief applied in Great Britain. That money is a Treasury contribution, and those who manage the scheme will not be working to a ceiling of £1 million. No budget has been fixed, because the scheme will be demand-led.


Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Today’s announcement is welcome to farming and related businesses in rural areas. I hope that the scheme will alleviate some of the stress that the farming community has felt. Does the Minister envisage a cut-off time for applications for grant aid under the scheme? Some farms that have been infected or have had animals slaughtered are no longer in operation, and the farmers may not be entitled to housing benefit in the normal way. Can they claim grant aid under the scheme as well? Cattle marts have been identified as an associated industry— and that is welcome — but could events such as horse shows and the people who make their living from attending and exhibiting at those also be part of the scheme?


I acknowledge the Chairperson’s welcome of today’s announcement, and I appreciate the constructive interest that that Committee, and others, have taken in this matter.
Businesses should register for the scheme by 20 June. It is entirely reasonable that a date is set, given that the scheme is meant to address hardship that is manifesting itself now. The scheme is for business relief, so it will not be for domestic rating purposes per se. However, the Department of Finance and Personnel recognises, as has been reflected in debate here and elsewhere, that some farms have diversified, particularly into tourism, and so there are some businesses such as those offering bed and breakfast that, because of their scale, are paying only the domestic rate.
The Department is, therefore, making provision to enable such businesses to achieve commensurate rate relief. However, the relief scheme has not been extended to domestic rates as such; that is not the case in Great Britain either. Members asked the Department to create a scheme to ensure that businesses here were in a no less advantageous position for relief than businesses across the water, and the Department has delivered that.
The point about cattle marts was registered here in previous debates and was covered by today’s announcement.


I welcome today’s announcement on behalf of the Agriculture Committee. That Committee heard at first hand of the hardships that are faced by the owners and operators of livestock marts. Today’s acknowledgement that the Department closed down the marts and other businesses is welcome.
However, can the Minister detail any additional options that were considered to provide further relief against the ongoing costs of these businesses such as insurance and rent? Will assistance be given towards any capital investment that marts will have to make before they are allowed to reopen? The announcement is welcome to businesses that are related to agriculture, but in the horse world, riding schools have been closed — do they come under that umbrella as well?


Obviously any of the equestrian centres that have seen a reduction in turnover because of the foot-and-mouth restrictions will be eligible to apply in the same way as any other business. This scheme is to ensure that businesses that can show hardship are not liable for rates — as with businesses across the water — during the period of hardship. The Department has achieved that.
The Member raised other issues such as grant assistance in other forms and for other problems. This announcement does not cover those issues.


I welcome the Minister’s statement, but is he aware that our Committee has received representations from the Northern Ireland Hotels Federation, from people who own bed-and-breakfast facilities and from coach operators? Will the applications be dealt with flexibly? Will small bed-and-breakfast facilities that provide fewer than six places and pay domestic rates qualify for the grant scheme? What plans does the Minister have for an appeals mechanism? That will be important in dealing with such a detailed and sensitive issue.


I am aware, as are the Executive, of the representations that various business sectors have made to Committees and directly to Ministers. We have tried to make sure that the arrangements extend assistance to businesses here similar to that offered to businesses across the water. That has been done. Questions are being asked about further assistance, for which there would be no cover from the Treasury or anyone else.
There will be a review mechanism so that anyone who is refused assistance may have the decision reviewed. Smaller bed-and-breakfast establishments, with fewer than six bedrooms, will be eligible for assistance, provided that they can produce evidence of hardship. We should remember that this is a hardship relief scheme; businesses will have to show evidence of hardship and evidence that the hardship was related to foot-and-mouth disease. To qualify for the grant, businesses will have to prove a 15% drop in turnover. We think that that figure is realistic and that it is not too exacting an indicator of hardship.

Rates Increase

2. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel in the light of the recent rates increase what consideration he has given to the plight of local community halls, many of which act as a focus of community activity in remote rural areas; and to make a statement.
(AQO1499/00)

Orange Halls (Derating)

11. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether he has any plans to derate Orange Halls and premises belonging to the Loyal Orders throughout the Province, as they are essentially cultural venues.
(AQO1527/00)


Mr Deputy Speaker, with your permission, I will take questions 2 and 11 together.
Existing legislation permits rate relief on any hall with facilities that the wider community uses. The degree of relief available is in direct proportion to the use of the facility for charitable and broad community purposes. The review of rating policy will include consideration of all existing relief.


Does the Minister recognise the vital role that rural halls play in the community? How does he intend to alleviate the financial burdens that many such halls have accumulated?


We recognise that many organisations and community groups that use and run halls have funding difficulties, and we address those in many of our spending programmes. There are some rate relief concessions available for halls that are used for wider community purposes. In the context of the rating policy review, we will look at those reliefs and at suggestions for revising them.


I am sure that the Minister is aware that in many country areas the local Orange Halls are the only halls that are available for public use. As those halls fulfil a unique and valuable function, they should be derated. They are primarily cultural venues and, as such, deserve to be derated in the interests of fairness and equity.


I refer the Member to what I have already said. There are existing facilities that allow a measure of rate relief to be accorded to halls where they are used for wider community or charitable purposes. That measure applies only when a hall is used for those purposes. There are no plans automatically to derate any particular category of hall on the grounds that it is used as a cultural venue or anything similar.


Does the Minister accept that he has made a very unfair ruling, as Orange Halls are essentially cultural halls? GAA halls are used for sporting purposes, and he finds it completely reasonable to derate those, yet he asks that Orange Halls prove that they are being used to set up children’s groups, youth clubs, youth meetings, and so on, before they can be derated. Those responsible for the Orange Halls have to provide more information than the GAA has to. Surely it is unfair and iniquitous for the Minister not to derate Orange Halls while continuing to give the GAA full rate relief.


I remind the Member that no decision has been taken yet. I am reflecting the current position in terms of the rating regime. There is a rating policy review. That review will look at existing reliefs and exemptions and any possible revisions that may be made to them. Any hall, regardless of who owns or operates it, is eligible for rate relief if it is used for a wider community or charitable purpose. There is not, as the Member suggests, total derating for the GAA. I realise that many halls are used for a variety of activities, perhaps including line dancing. I do not know whether the Member believes that that broader community activity should be eligible for rate relief.

Census Forms

3. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail (a) the success rate in the delivery of census forms and (b) the return rate to date.
(AQO1513/00)


It is estimated that over 99% of households received a form prior to census day. A census coverage survey that will be carried out later this week will be used to quantify more accurately the extent of any missed coverage. A similar survey was conducted in 1991. It is estimated that over 90% of forms have now been returned. Work is continuing to get all the forms back.


If the figure were 99%, we could be reasonably satisfied. I have some anecdotal evidence of failure to deliver the forms in parts of Belfast, in particular. I do not simply mean the kind of student rented area that might be considered difficult to deliver forms to, but also some residential suburban areas. What procedures will be in place to follow up nil returns, particularly if householders have attempted to contact the helpline and have still been unable to get forms delivered to them?


We appreciate any information that any Member can give us about failure to deliver forms. The helpline has been put in place to try to pick up on that issue. If Members, in the course of any other activities that they and their party Colleagues might be conducting in the next while that will bring them to people’s doorsteps, hear of any instances in which people have not had forms delivered, we hope that they will use the helpline to assist them.
There have been some problems and some people missed, for example, in some newer developments. Also, some areas may have fallen between enumeration district boundaries. We have tried to deal with all of those, and we will try to pick up on any other outstanding issues. Enumerators are currently in the field to follow up on households where there has not yet been a return in order to ensure that there will be the fullest possible return of census forms.

Peace II Funding

4. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to ensure that the Peace II funding will be carefully monitored to ensure equality in the distribution of funding.
(AQO1525/00)


A number of agreed horizontal principles will govern the way in which the Peace II programme will be implemented. These principles address equality and balance considerations. Furthermore, in accordance with section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the special EU programmes body, which is the managing authority for Peace II, has a statutory responsibility to promote equality of opportunity.


Will the Minister acknowledge that there are areas of need in every constituency and every council area? Is he aware that of £22·25 million spent by one intermediate funding body, Proteus, none was spent in the Carrickfergus Borough area? Furthermore, is he aware that I flagged up to his Department two years ago that no funding was being spent by that body in Carrickfergus? Given the failure of his Department and the intermediate funding body to act subsequently, how can he assure my constituents that, in the future, Peace II money will be spent fairly?


First, the programme, the particular measure and the intermediate funding body to which the Member referred are obviously part of Peace I. In due course, we will be conducting a full evaluation of Peace I. As the Member indicates, at the interim stage there were concerns, reflected by the MEPs among others, that not all areas were getting similar access to funding. In many cases that was as much to do with problems with applications as with the allocations themselves. That needs to be reflected.
Across all measures in Peace II, we are trying to ensure that all areas of need and all sectors are able to make viable applications that are worthy of support. We are determined to fulfil the requirements of Peace II. We cannot pretend that every single measure under Peace I could be expected to cover every need in every geographical area — it was just not in the nature of the scheme, and it was certainly not within the scope of the funding involved.


It is important that we monitor to ensure equality in the distribution of funding — that is crucial. Can the Minister confirm that Strangford Lough is the only area of outstanding natural beauty that does not qualify for Peace II funding on the criterion of disadvantage? Does he agree that places like Killyleagh, Greyabbey, Kircubbin and Portaferry have great social need and should be included rather than excluded as at present?


The Member has rightly said that it is going to be important to monitor Peace II. That is why we have put much stronger arrangements in place for the monitoring committees, with much clearer roles. One of their key roles will be to agree the programme complements. We are currently devising them. They have to be agreed by the monitoring committees before we can call for applications for funding.
I should make it clear that under the community support framework, as approved by the European Commission, we are meant to target this programme at areas of social need. There are criteria that we have to be seen to have regard to, and the monitoring committees will want to be satisfied about that as well.


Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. With regard to monitoring in particular, can the Minister tell me if there will be consultation with local partnerships? Can we move to having more standardisation or a single monitoring system, which would be better for local areas? The last time a lot of irrelevant questions were asked. We need essential monitoring and evaluation of the programme.


As I indicated, we have new monitoring arrangements in place for Peace II in respect of the new monitoring committee. There is also a new monitoring committee for the building sustainable prosperity programme and for the community support framework overall.
We are also moving towards the new Northern Ireland regional partnership board that will not oversee the detailed work of the district partnerships in the same way but will be responsible for promoting and fostering the wider development of partnership and encouraging best practice. In the new models of partnership which we hope to develop, we want to ensure that better partnership models develop in local areas; those models will depend on local agreement. We also want uniformity to help us achieve the highest possible standards.

Gap Funding

5. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether all Departments have been fully informed about the arrangements for addressing the issue of gap funding and to detail when he made this information available.
(AQO1502/00)


Departments have been fully informed and involved in the arrangements for addressing the issue of gap funding since 8 February 2001. That was when the Executive agreed its approach to the issue which I set out in my statement to the Assembly on 12 February. The interdepartmental EU steering group, which is chaired by the Department of Finance and Personnel, discussed the issue at a meeting on 19 February. A working group made up of departmental representatives was then established to manage the arrangements, and it has since met on a number of occasions to review progress and deal with matters arising. I have also been in correspondence with my fellow Ministers.


As the Minister is aware, gap funding provisions are dependent on programme complements being agreed within the timescale set out, which is 21 June. I note that the equality consultation has started, which is important. However, does the Minister agree that there is a need for the complements to be about quality and not just equality? The monitoring committees are expressing some concerns about the clarity and robustness of the indicators that are being produced for inclusion in the complements. Can the Minister update us on that issue?


It is important to ensure that high-quality indicators are in place to enable the monitoring committees to measure the effectiveness of the return we are getting on public investment under these programmes.
The special EU programmes body and the Department of Finance and Personnel, as managing authorities for the Peace II and building sustainable prosperity operational programmes, have included targets and indicators for each measure in the initial drafts of the programme complements. Those are being refined in conjunction with the monitoring committees as part of the ongoing consultation on the programme complements. Those targets and indicators will be further quality assured.

New Targeting Social Need

6. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail the progress being made on the review of procurement and to give an assurance that the findings of this review team will reflect the Executive’s commitment to new targeting social need and equality.
(AQO1504/00)


The review team has now met on six occasions, and it engaged in a public consultation on 3 May. It has discussed its emerging thoughts with the Finance and Personnel Committee and with officials in Departments. That will assist the team to bring forward its proposals, taking account of the equality dimension, for consideration by the Executive Committee in June. Among other things, the review team’s terms of reference ask it to identify the scope to use public procurement to further local social and economic objectives in the context of current EC and international procurement law.


Will the Minister confirm that all Departments and their agencies will be required to conform to good practice models of procurement, thereby ensuring that the people of Northern Ireland have value for money and fairness in all public purchasing, no matter where it is carried out?


The original review of procurement carried out prior to devolution showed that there was considerable room for improvement. It will be important to maximise the gains that are possible in terms of value for money and equality for all.
It is important to ensure that guidance on good practice models is promulgated throughout Departments, their agencies and other associated bodies and that procedures are in place to ensure adherence to those guidelines.

Local Strategy Partnerships

7. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail the progress being made on the setting up of the new local strategy partnerships.
(AQO1505/00)


Arrangements for the implementation of the new local strategy partnerships were discussed at a colloquy in Ballymena on 31 January. It was attended by all the organisations involved in the delivery of Peace I. Following that, the special EU programmes body (SEUPB) convened a focus group to draft guidelines for the formation and operation of the new local strategy partnerships. The SEUPB has initiated a consultation and information process on these arrangements, including a series of seminars that were held earlier this month. The SEUPB has now issued guidelines on the formation and operation of the local strategy partnerships and on the development of integrated local strategies.


Will these new partnerships be encouraged to develop long-term sustainability, and will we see these structures being fully utilised in areas other than EU funding situations, giving local people a better opportunity to influence issues that affect their lives and that of the community?


I do not see the principles of local partnership working as something that can apply only to European funding, to be thrown away once that funding ends. I want to see partnership working become an integral part of how we ensure that local community voices are heard. They influence priorities for spending at local level — not just in respect of European funds, but of all sources of public funding. The input from district councils at a corporate level, and from the statutory agencies that operate at local level, will be important in developing long-term sustainability.


I want to comment on the failure of some Members to appear and ask their questions. In the early part of Question Time there were at least three questions that did not have a questioner. I beg Members to be in their seats by 2.30 pm for the beginning of Question Time.
Adjourned at 4.08 pm.

Education

Moneydarragh Primary School

Mr Eddie McGrady: 3. asked the Minister of Education to outline when capital funding will be made available for the provision of a new build facility at Moneydarragh Primary School, Annalong, County Down.
(AQO1506/00)

Mr Martin McGuinness: : Subject to resources, capital funding can be made available for projects when economic appraisals and sufficient planning have been completed. Moneydarragh Primary School is one of a number of primary schools awaiting completion of an economic appraisal to determine how the school’s future accomodation needs can be met. My Department has identified a programme of economic appraisals for maintained schools in the business year 2001-02. I am pleased to say that Moneydarragh is included in the list of projects.

Mr Eddie McGrady: I am sure that the Minister is aware from his departmental records that the number of pupils at Moneydarragh has increased quite substantially since 1999. I did not quite catch what he said about the extent to which the appraisal has been carried out. What progress has been made, for instance, in the last three months, and can the Minister give a firm assurance that Moneydarragh will be included in next year’s new starts programme for capital expenditure?

Mr Martin McGuinness: It is vital that we go through the economic appraisal. When we do, planning for the project will proceed so as to ensure that the scheme can be considered for inclusion in any new starts announcement. There are procedures to be followed, and it is vital that the economic appraisal is carried out as quickly as possible so that whatever planning difficulties exist can be overcome. Once we do that, Moneydarragh Primary School will be included for consideration along with the others, and the Member will understand that there are many competing demands.

Mr Sammy Wilson: Has the commander noted the number of times that capital spending has been raised at Question Time and the widespread dissatisfaction there is over his handling of money for that purpose? Does he understand the disquiet, especially in the Unionist community — although I note that a number of Nationalist representatives have also raised the issue — over the discrepancies in the way that he has allocated capital building funds? When you compare last year’s allocations to Protestant schools with those to Catholic schools, you find that the ratio was three to one. This year the ratio was twice that, and the Executive programme funds show that the funding was 10 times greater for schools that cater mostly for the Catholic community. Is the difference in the state of the buildings so great that he can justify those anouncements that he makes year after year? Perhaps he can also tell us why half the money spent this year went to areas where four seats are being targeted by Sinn Fein in the election in the west of the Province?

Mr Martin McGuinness: When the Member refers to me by my proper title I will give him an answer.

Sir John Gorman: I call Mr Armstrong.

Mr Sammy Wilson: The Minister has been asked a question. The Minister has also admitted that he was a commander. Therefore, whether it is Minister or commander, IRA/ Sinn Féin, I would have thought, makes little difference.

Sir John Gorman: Mr Wilson, you are out of order. You have behaved improperly in the manner in which you addressed the Minister. I am not surprised that he has used his position and authority not to answer.
I call Mr Armstrong.

Mr Sammy Wilson: I would have thought —

Sir John Gorman: You are out of order.
I call Mr Armstrong.

Mr Sammy Wilson: It is most unreasonable of you to defend the Minister against —

Sir John Gorman: Please sit down, Mr Wilson. You are out of order.

Mr Sammy Wilson: You, as Deputy Speaker and as a Unionist, find it more in keeping to defend a member of IRA/Sinn Féin, who has admitted that he is a commander, rather than have him answer the question that many people in the Unionist community want answered.

Sir John Gorman: Thank you.
I call Mr Armstrong.

Mr Billy Armstrong: Will the Minister tell us how he intends to redress the financial difficulties facing rural schools, particularly those with small numbers of pupils?

Mr Martin McGuinness: I am not sure that this relates to the question posed by Mr McGrady. We are continually reviewing our approach to all of these matters. The issue of small rural schools is something in which I have a keen interest. In fact, I have been looking at this since I took up this position. Many rural schools have problems and difficulties, and I appreciate the huge contribution that rural schools make. I also know and understand that there are difficulties in those schools in relation to levels of funding. In conjunction with CCMS and the education and library boards, we are continuously looking at how we can alleviate whatever difficulties exist.
The other point is that the small schools support factor in the local management of schools (LMS) formula targets resources at small schools. We have a paper out for consultation at present, and I have no doubt that this is an issue that will be addressed in the course of that. It is vital that as many people as possible contribute, as this consultation is going to make a very important contribution towards ensuring that there is fairness and equality in school funding.

New Targeting Social Need

Ms Patricia Lewsley: 6. asked the Minister of Education to outline how he intends to skew resources to those most in need under new targeting social need in the next six months.
(AQO1516/00)

Mr Martin McGuinness: My Department’s actions in relation to targeting social need are already set out in the recently published ‘Making it Work, the New TSN Annual Report’. The action plan covers all of my Department’s business areas and demonstrates that the education service already targets social need in a range of ways.
Among these initiatives is the TSN element of LMS. Targeting social need is an important element in school funding and is directed at need wherever it arises. In determining the level of resources to the school sector, 5% of the budget is presently top-sliced and distributed on the basis of levels of free school meals entitlement. In the year 2001-02 the total amount distributed in this way will be £40 million. I have also provided an additional £1 million for TSN from the £20·36 million budget addition for schools announced in February.
The consultation document on a common funding formula, launched last month, proposes an increase in the amount reserved for New TSN and greater emphasis on indicators of educational need in tandem with free school meals entitlement as a measure of social deprivation. No decisions — and it is very important that I stress this — have yet been taken in relation to this, and I look forward to the responses to the consultation document.

Ms Patricia Lewsley: Does the Minister agree that the new TSN money is really old money dressed up as new, and does he accept that raising this from 5% to 5·5% is totally insufficient to have any real impact on the problem?

Mr Martin McGuinness: I do not agree that it is old money dressed up as new. At present 5% of the total schools’ recurrent budget is top-sliced to target social need, and I intend to increase that amount. It is also important to stress that people should understand that this is 5% on to the LMS formula is only one element among a wide range of TSN programmes supported by my Department, including the schools support programme, the group one schools initiative, the special educational needs code of practice, education outside schools, support for travellers, pupils for whom English is an additional language and the pre-school education expansion programme. With school budgets under continuous pressure, the additional £4 million put into TSN, which represents a 10% increase, is significant, and I am committed to allocating more resources to targeting social need if that is necessary or if the Executive make additional resources available. I have not made a final decision about that or any of the other matters dealt with in the consultation document. I will listen very carefully to any proposal on any of those matters.

Mr David McClarty: Can the Minister confirm that targeting social need is a priority within his Department and outline the personnel and resources dedicated to taking this forward?

Mr Martin McGuinness: It is certainly a priority within my Department. I cannot give specific details of the numbers of personnel involved, but I will gladly write to the Member with the information.

Ms Michelle Gildernew: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Is the Minister prepared to consider a substantial increase in TSN funding if the consultation proves that this is necessary?

Mr Martin McGuinness: Yes, I would certainly be prepared to do that, and I think it is vital that this House understands that no final decisions have been taken in relation to TSN. It is important that everyone who has a contribution to make does so, as there is a real opportunity for people to influence the outcome of the consultation process.

Executive Committee

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: 7. asked the Minister of Education to detail (a) when he will next meet with the Executive Committee and (b) what issues he intends to bring to the attention of that Committee.
(AQO1497/00)

Mr Martin McGuinness: I plan to attend the next meeting of the Executive Committee, which is scheduled for 14 June. As for the business items I intend to bring to the Committee, I refer the Member to my answer to AQO371/00.

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Since the Minister’s confession that he is a commander in the Provisional IRA, can he inform the House whether he intends to inform the Executive when they next meet — [Interruption]

Sir John Gorman: Would the Member keep to the subject under debate and omit questions such as that.

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Does he intend to inform the Executive when they next meet whether he is still a commander in the Provisional IRA or whether he has relinquished that position? If he has not relinquished that position —[Interruption]

Sir John Gorman: This is not relevant.

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: It is incompatible to be part of the Government and to be a member and commander of the Provisional IRA.

Sir John Gorman: Will you kindly sit down while I am standing.

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: It is incompatible for him to remain in the Government for as long as he is a commander in the Provisional IRA.

Sir John Gorman: You have opportunities to speak on such matters on other occasions but not when you are asking a question of the Minister.

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: The question allows that that be asked. The Minister has left himself open, given his answer to my first question and the fact that he is a commander in the Provisional IRA. I believe people are entitled to know whether he intends to give up that position or remain as a Minister.

Sir John Gorman: Kindly sit down, Mr Paisley.

Mr Danny Kennedy: Does the Minister intend to listen to calls for an extension to the consultation period on the review of the LMS funding formula, and will he bring this to the attention of the Executive Committee?
Is the Minister aware that joint representations have been made to me, as Chairperson of the Education Committee, by the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), the Governing Bodies’ Association (GBA) and the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education (NICIE) on the issue? How will he deal with the fact that incorrect information was published by his Department in the original document?

Mr Martin McGuinness: The issue is important to all of us. It is crucial that we complete the process of consultation as quickly as possible. I have set out a time span for that. I was made aware recently that there were concerns about the consultation period. The deadline of 29 June allows schools three months in which to respond. That is substantially in excess of the standard eight-week period for consultations.
Briefing conferences were held at the end of April in each board area to explain and clarify the proposals to schools and to chairs of boards of governors in order to assist them in framing their responses. Forms based on tick-box responses and further written commentaries, if desired, have been sent to all recipients of the document. Those measures should help ensure that schools can stay within the timescale. The end of June deadline is dictated by the school summer break and the need for sufficient time to consider the responses and discuss any revised proposals with the Education Committee and the Executive. Adequate time must be allowed to make the necessary changes to operational arrangements in the Department and boards to ensure the smooth implementation of a common formula in April 2002.
The publication of incorrect data was a mistake, and that was clearly acknowledged by the Department. All the interested parties were informed, and we have apologised for it.

Literacy and Numeracy

Mr John Dallat: 8. asked the Minister of Education why he has revised the targets for literacy and numeracy at Key Stage 1, 2 and 3 downwards and to indicate what plans he has to address this issue; and to make a statement.
(AQO1533/00)

Mr Martin McGuinness: As I explained to the Member in my letter of 26 April, the provisional literacy and numeracy targets set in 1998 had to be based on the results of only one year’s statutory assessment. They were therefore a best estimate of what might be achievable.
With four years’ assessment results now available, we considered that there were sufficient trend data to inform a review of the targets, most of which were, nonetheless, retained. In two cases, the provisional targets were unrealistic. First, the target for the number of pupils achieving level 4 and above in English at the end of Key Stage 2 has been revised from 80% to 77%. Secondly, the target for pupils achieving level 5 in mathematics up to the end of Key Stage 3 has been revised from 85% to 75%. Those changes are not an indication of a reduction in standards; rather, they represent more realistic targets, based on the additional information now available as a result of four years of statutory assessment.

Mr John Dallat: I thank the Minister for his continuing interest in the issue. As we come closer to achieving full employment, employers are increasingly dependent on employees who may have serious literacy and numeracy problems. That information has been given to several Committees. Is the Minister aware that those employers have to organise their own classes in basic English and simple arithmetic? He must agree that that is totally unacceptable, given that we already have approximately 250,000 people with serious literacy and numeracy problems. Lowering targets is not the way forward.

Mr Martin McGuinness: I am aware of what has been said by people in business and industry. I share the Member’s concern. The Department is greatly concerned about the issue. There are several reasons for it, including the transfer procedure, which has been shown to have a negative impact on the motivation of pupils who fail to obtain a grammar school place, and the relevance of the curriculum at Key Stages 3 and 4. Both those issues are being reviewed.
The improving performance of the primary sector provides a firm foundation for improvements in the secondary sector. In order to get this right, it is important that we do the work at primary level and that we be involved in the different processes and projects that identify the difficulties. The contribution made by such things as the reading recovery programme is critical. When visiting primary schools recently, I have been impressed by the number of teachers involved in creating their own reading recovery programmes. I agree with the Member that there is still a considerable amount of work to be done. We are setting about that task.

Mrs Joan Carson: Is the Minister satisfied with his evaluation of the existing policies to tackle the numeracy and literacy problems? What does he intend to do to put realistic targets in place?

Mr Martin McGuinness: I have recently taken a decision to put in place realistic targets that are achievable. It is important that we continue with the programmes that are available through the education and library boards, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools and other education sectors. I am satisfied that we are getting this right and that the programmes now in place can deal with the difficulty. There is much good work that can be done. I am satisfied that we are facing up to what is a clear educational problem that we must move to address as quickly as possible.

Mr Gerry McHugh: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Why is progress slower than initially expected regarding literacy and numeracy in the secondary sector? What is the effect of that on underachievement at school leaving stage?

Mr Martin McGuinness: A great deal of it has to do with the impact of the transfer procedure. We have had discussion and debate on this subject recently. Many educationalists have gone on the record as identifying problems surrounding the 11-plus and our transfer procedure as a major factor in demotivating pupils who cannot gain a place at grammar school. We look forward to the proposals of the Burns review in October, and when we receive a copy of that review, we will look at the proposals and recommendations that have been made. All of that will directly address the issue raised by the Member.

Vandalism

Mr Barry McElduff: 9. asked the Minister of Education if he will seek increased financial assistance from the Executive to address the growing number of vandalistic attacks on local schools.
(AQO1531/00)

Mr Martin McGuinness: Vandalism costs will be taken into account in the next spending review. However, those costs are a drain on the resources available for the education sector. We must work with school authorities and local communities to help stamp out this problem.

Mr Barry McElduff: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Aire as a fhreagra. What was the cost of vandalism to our schools across the five education and library board areas last year? Does the Minister agree that school budgets cannot reasonably expect to withstand these additional costs?

Mr Martin McGuinness: The expenditure by boards amounted to slightly over £1 million. We have made additional funding available for school security: £4 million has been made available over the last four years specifically for that.
These have taken the form of access controls on doors, particularly to control visitor access, internal audio and visual monitoring systems and intruder alarms. The measures are largely directed towards personal protection of staff and pupils and are determined on the basis of risk assessments carried out by individual schools.
The measures are in addition to the more significant capital works undertaken by boards and individual schools to protect school buildings, which take the form of fencing, closed-circuit television (CCTV), external security lighting, security grilles and windows and the provision of security stores. We are very conscious of the fact that year-on-year there have been burdens on the education and library boards and other school sectors.
All of us deplore any attack on schools, wherever they are. It is vital that people understand the huge contribution that schools make to our society and that elected representatives and leaders in society make it absolutely clear to those who are involved in this disgraceful behaviour that they should desist.

Post-Primary Provision

Mr Conor Murphy: 11. asked the Minister of Education to outline his plans to proceed with progressive proposals for a new way forward for post-primary provision.
(AQO1535/00)

Mr Martin McGuinness: The independent review of post- primary education is due to report at the end of October. Following consultation on its findings and recommendations, my intention is to bring forward proposals for change early next year.

Mr Conor Murphy: The Minister will be aware, as I am sure we all are, that the outcome of these discussions will have massive implications for the future shape of education in the North. Is he satisfied that by the time the recommendations in the report come through, the consultations will have been comprehensive enough?

Mr Martin McGuinness: The Gallagher and Smith research report of September 2000 entitled ‘The Effects of the Selective System of Secondary Education in Northern Ireland’ provided information on education in England, Scotland and a number of other European countries. Substantial knowledge of these systems, and of that in the South, also resides within the membership of the review body and the panel of education advisers. The review body has undertaken study visits to the South, Scotland, the Netherlands and Austria to experience their systems at first hand.
Everyone knows that the consultation has been the biggest by far on any educational issue in recent years. The review body has held over 25 public meetings, two open days to receive oral evidence, meetings with representatives of business and commerce and has received over 1,000 written submissions. There has been a huge public interest in the review body’s work, and there have been well over a quarter of a million hits on the official web site.
It has been a very intensive consultation process, and I am satisfied that we have done everything in our power to be as inclusive as possible, and to make it as easy as possible for everyone to contribute to what is undoubtedly the biggest issue in education that we face in coming times.

Mr George Savage: Will the Minister consider making funds available for transport in rural areas to get young people to school?

Sir John Gorman: Mr Savage, is this relevant to the question?

Mr George Savage: Yes, very much so. I was thinking especially of families in the post-primary sector in rural areas.

Mr Martin McGuinness: Transport is available. If the Member is dissatisfied with any aspect of that I will gladly listen to any representations he wishes to make.

School Governing Bodies and Education and Library Boards: Gender Balance

Mr Sean Neeson: 12. asked the Minister of Education to give his assessment of the gender balance on school governing bodies and education and library boards.
(AQO1511/00)

Mr Martin McGuinness: Women are underrepresented on schools’ boards of governors and on the education and library boards. My Department does not hold details of the gender balance of boards of governors and has a direct involvement in only 10% of the places. In the reconstitution undertaken in 1997, the Department of Education nominated 1,040 representatives, of which 419, some 40%, were women.

Mr Sean Neeson: Will the Minister keep this situation monitored, bearing in mind the importance of the equality agenda? Will he also consider the underrepresentation of those from ethnic minorities on school boards?

Mr Martin McGuinness: We will certainly do that; it is vital to keep the underrepresentation of the ethnic minorities to the forefront of our minds at all times. The Member is correct in pointing out that there are huge responsibilities on all Departments, under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and the equality issues that flow from that, to ensure that we deal with the issue in a proper fashion.
As a Minister, I am very much for encouraging everyone in our society to recognise the rights of women and ethnic minorities, and my Department is consistently pointing out to everyone in the education sector the need to move forward and to make progress as quickly as possible.

Pre-School Provision

Ms Michelle Gildernew: 14. asked the Minister of Education to detail (a) the current level of pre-school provision and (b) whether he is confident that he will meet his target of full provision by 2003.
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Mr Martin McGuinness: In 1997, there were funded places for 45% of children in their final pre-school year. As a result of the pre-school education expansion programme, the level has risen to 75% in this academic year, and it is expected to exceed 85% in the year 2001-02. I remain very confident that by March 2003 a place will be available for all children, whose parents wish it, in their final pre-school year

Sir John Gorman: Time is up — [Interruption].

Mr Sammy Wilson: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Standing Order 19 refers to Questions. Earlier, during Question Time, you protected the Minister of Education and enabled him to avoid answering a question that is pertinent to the capital spending for schools across the Province — an issue that many people in the Unionist community are concerned about. Could you please tell me — [Interruption].

Sir John Gorman: Are you now making a party political broadcast?

Mr Sammy Wilson: No, I am not. I am asking a question.
The grounds on which you refused to have my question put were that I had not addressed the Minister as "Minister". Hansard will show that I had referred to his dual capacity as Minister and commander. Will you agree to scrutinise Hansard to see that the term "Minister" was used, and will you also inform the House which section of Standing Order 19 states that a Member must address a Minister by his proper title? Do you agree that his proper title is Minister and commander?

Sir John Gorman: Standing Order 1(2) states
"The Speaker’s ruling shall be final on all questions of procedure and order."
I rule — and I have no reason to alter my view about it — that that rule applies here. Secondly, I ask you to address the Minister by his proper title. My ruling is final.

Mr Eddie McGrady: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker — [Interruption].

Mr Sammy Wilson: Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I accept that your ruling is final, but your ruling must be based — [Interruption].

Sir John Gorman: Mr McGrady has a point of order.

Mr Eddie McGrady: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I ask you to read Hansard and to recall what happened during Question Time today. Standing Order 60(1)(g) describes how wilful disregard of the authority of the Speaker requires certain courses of action. Will you exercise that judgement in respect of the Member who has just spoken and of Ian Paisley Jnr and report to the Assembly as to whether there was a breach of due regard to the authority of the Speaker?

Sir John Gorman: Standing Order 60(1) states
"The Speaker may, if any Member: persistently or wilfully disregards the authority of the Speaker order the Member to withdraw immediately from the Chamber and its precincts during the remainder of that day’s sitting and the Keeper of the House shall act upon any instructions as he/she may receive from the Speaker".
That ruling is final, and I am taking no more points of order from you, Mr Wilson. If you raise any more I shall ask you to take account of this and take the necessary action.

Mr Sammy Wilson: Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Sir John Gorman: I am not taking any further points of order on this matter.

Mr Sammy Wilson: Mr Deputy Speaker, you have — [Interruption]

Sir John Gorman: I am not engaged in an argument with you, Mr Wilson. I am ordering you not to raise further points of order.

Mr Sammy Wilson: Under which Standing Order did you rule my question out of order in the first place? I am entitled — [Interruption]

Sir John Gorman: Mr Wilson, you are totally out of order, as I have told you on a number of occasions. I will rather humanely allow you to continue to sit here on the basis that you conduct yourself properly.

Health, Social Services and Public Safety

Ulster Hospital

Mrs Iris Robinson: 1. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail the level of capital investment required at the Ulster Hospital.
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Ms Bairbre de Brún: Chuir Iontaobhas SSS Uladh agus Otharlann plean forbartha straitéiseach isteach a leagann amach moltaí ar infheistiú caipitil ag Otharlann Uladh. Tá mo Roinn ag cur bailchríche ar a measúnú ar an phlean, a mholann móruasghrádú na hotharlainne ar chostas de thart ar £98 milliún; móruasghrádú a chéimneofar thar seacht mbliana.
The Ulster Community and Hospital Health and Social Services Trust has submitted a strategic development plan which sets out proposals on capital investment in the Ulster Hospital. The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is finalising its assessment of the plan, which proposes a major upgrade of the hospital costing around £98 million phased over seven years.

Mrs Iris Robinson: Last year the Minister received a report on the capital needs of the Ulster Hospital. It is now May. Can the Minister tell the House when a decision is going to be made? That is what the people who use the hospital need to hear. Can the Minister tell the House how long it takes to read one report, given that her officials met with representatives of the Ulster Hospital throughout the drafting of it, and especially since the Health Department awarded itself £2 million to deal with it?
Is the Minister aware of how bad things are? The accident and emergency department at the Ulster Hospital was built in 1974 to accommodate 25,000 people. Today it is dealing with almost 80,000 people. Is the Minister aware that there are four patients lying on trolleys in one cubicle? Is that acceptable?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: I thank the Member for her questions. At a meeting on 14 December 2000 with my officials, the Ulster Community and Hospital Health and Social Services Trust set out its strategic development plan for the Ulster Hospital. A draft of the plan was provided at the meeting, and the Department received copies of the finalised document on 10 January. The Department is urgently assessing the detail of the plan, and when that is completed I will consider the options available and announce my decision as soon as possible. That is in keeping with the normal timescale for looking at the details of plans of this complexity.
I recognise the urgent pressures to increase bed capacity at the Ulster Hospital, and £2 million has been earmarked in the public service agreement to fund an additional 20 adult beds at the hospital.
The trust has submitted an outline business case for the reinstatement of the Jaffa ward to provide that extra capacity. A decision will be taken following an announcement on the strategic development plan and after the individual business case has been assessed by Health Department officials. I am aware of the pressures on the hospital, and I will do everything in my power to ensure that this matter is advanced as speedily as possible.

Mr George Savage: The Ulster Hospital is so inundated with patients that there are four people in a cubicle where there should only be one. The same thing is happening in Craigavon Area Hospital.

Sir John Gorman: You must refer only to the Ulster Hospital.

Mr George Savage: When does the Minister hope to alleviate the problems in the Ulster Hospital?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: I refer the Member to my answer to Mrs Robinson.

Mrs Eileen Bell: I am aware that the Minister and her Department know of the current situation in the accident and emergency department of the Ulster Hospital. My Colleague and I were there two days last week during that awful time, as was the Minister’s permanent secretary. I believe that other Members also visited the hospital.
As Mrs Robinson has already stated, having seen the situation we urge the Minister to make sure that the timetable is expedited. A lot of things happened: some beds were supplied, and day wards were opened. I ask that this situation does not happen again.

Ms Bairbre de Brún: I thank the Member for her comments and for the recognition that the permanent secretary of the Department visited the hospital to see the situation and to report to me at the end of last week. As I said to Mrs Robinson, I am very clear that we need to move as speedily as possible regarding this situation and, indeed, with other hospitals that are under pressure.
I reiterate that the situation has arisen through years of continuous and historic underfunding of health and personal social services here. The situation cannot be rectified overnight. Given the work that the Department has undertaken with the Ulster Community and Hospitals Trust and the strategic plan that is now in place, I am confident that we can make a start.
As I said to the Member on a previous occasion, the hospital staff have identified some elements to us as requiring particular attention. They identified an immediate need for the replacement of essential medical equipment and a back-up generator. They forwarded the details of the proposed replacement programme to my Department, the total cost being £1·48 million. I hope that we can move more speedily on this while taking forward the other aspects of the hospital’s needs.

Mobile Health Centres

Mr Kieran McCarthy: 2. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety whether she has any plans to introduce mobile health centres.
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Ms Bairbre de Brún: Níl rún agam ionaid sláinte taistil a thabhairt isteach. I have no plans to introduce mobile health centres.

Mr Kieran McCarthy: I thank the Minister and her permanent secretary for their quick response when asked to witness the horrendous scenes at the Ulster Hospital. Let us hope that those scenes are never repeated. The Minister has already given us a commitment on that.
Mobile health centres would be of great benefit to the rural community in order to provide equality of access as well as good health services. Should the Minister not be pursuing more imaginative methods in the delivery of general health?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: I have consulted widely on new arrangements for primary care in ‘Building the Way Forward in Primary Care’ That consultation has been completed, and there were no issues raised about mobile health centres or their use. When I have considered all of the responses I will decide on the future arrangements in primary care as quickly as possible.
At present there are a number of incentives to improve access to primary care services in rural areas. These include a rural practice payment scheme, which supports GPs in remote areas, a practice liablility payment scheme, which assists essential practices in isolated areas — doctors can be asked to dispense prescriptions for patients who have difficulty in obtaining their drugs and medicines.
There is an essential small pharmacy scheme, which gives help to pharmacies dispensing low numbers of prescriptions. There are outreach clinics that can bring hospital services to patients in rural areas. Boards can organise development schemes with GPs to improve services locally in response to local needs. We have taken a number of other points on board, as the Member will be aware, in terms of access to health services in rural areas, through the strategic review of the ambulance service, for example, and through the review of acute hospital services.

Executive Committee

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: 3. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail (a) when she will next meet with the Executive Committee, and (b) what issues does she intend to bring to the attention of that Committee.
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Ms Bairbre de Brún: Beidh mé ag freastal ar an chéad chruinniú eile den Choiste Feidhmiúcháin, atá le bheith ann Déardaoin 14 Meitheamh. Mar a mhínigh mé sa fhreagra a thug mé ar a mhacasamhail de cheist Dé Luain 27 Samhain 2000, ní gnáth trácht poiblí a dhéanamh ar mholtaí atá le cur faoi bhráid an Choiste Feidhmiúcháin nó atá á machnamh aige.
I will be attending the next meeting of the Executive, which is scheduled for Thursday 14 June. As I said in my answer to a similar question on 27November2000, it is not the practice to make public comment on policy proposals that are to be brought to the Executive or are under consideration by it.

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Given that the Minister has responsibility for health and public safety, does she intend to bring to the attention of her Executive Colleagues any concerns that one of them is an IRA commander? If so, does she believe that that is compatible with being part of the Government of Northern Ireland? Will she take this opportunity to inform the House of her position in the same organisation as her ministerial Colleague?

Sir John Gorman: Minister, since this is not your area of responsibility, you are not required to answer that question.

Western Health and Social Services Board Area (Psychiatrists)

Mrs Annie Courtney: 4. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail her plans to (a) increase the number of psychiatrists in the Western Health and Social Services Board area and (b) reduce the waiting time for general practitioner referrals for this service. And to make a statement.
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Ms Bairbre de Brún: Tá na boird sláinte agus seirbhísí sóisialta freagrach as measúnú riachtanas áitiúil a ndaonraí agus as ceannach seirbhísí le riar ar na riachtanais sin. Tá leibhéil éagsúla gairmithe meabhairshláinte riachtanach do riachtanais éagsúla, lena n-áirítear síciatraithe, síceolaithe, altraí agus teiripithe saothair.
Health and social services boards are responsible for assessing the local needs of their population and purchasing the services to meet those needs. Different needs require different numbers of mental health professionals, including psychiatrists, psychologists, nurses and occupational therapists. The Western Health and Social Services Board is piloting a project on mental health pressures that will help to inform the best model to meet its local needs. That model should indicate the number of mental health professionals required locally, including psychiatrists, and indicate how best to reduce waiting lists for those services.

Mrs Annie Courtney: I welcome the Minister’s commitment to a pilot scheme in the Western Board area. My concern is that there should be sufficient funding available to ensure that the level of psychiatric cover will not be allowed to fall below such a critical level again and that GPs will not have to wait for up to seven months for a referral.

Ms Bairbre de Brún: Mental health services throughout the North have traditionally been underfunded, and pressures have been increasing as more people use the services. There are limited resources as well as competing priorities, which the Executive have to decide upon. The health and social services boards and I believe in local provision and in the need to improve mental health services. The Western Health and Social Services Board is aware of the need to develop its mental health services and to make the most of the resources available.
I have allocated an additional £2 million this year toward the development of new mental health services. However, the effects of previous underfunding cannot be addressed overnight. I will also continue to argue the case for additional resources so that boards and trusts can continue to improve their delivery of services.

Mr Derek Hussey: I am sure that the Minister is also aware of the impinging factor of the shortage of nurses. She will also be aware of the concerns currently being expressed by the Royal College of Nursing. I am not casting any aspersions on the nurses who have come from abroad to Northern Ireland, but how and when will the Minister address the problem of the shortage of nurses in the Western Board area?

Sir John Gorman: I take it you refer to psychiatric nurses? Did you understand that, Minister?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: Traditionally, the question has been asked about acute hospital services as opposed to mental health services and the specific point raised by Mrs Courtney. On the issue of the spread of mental health services in the community and acute hospital services, the Western Board is working in Limavady and Omagh to ensure that it has the information and the direction that it needs to take services forward. Nurses from abroad have not been taken into the mental health area as much as the acute hospital area.

Orthopaedic Consultants

Dr Joe Hendron: 5. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail what action she is taking to reverse the decline in the number of orthopaedic consultants in Northern Ireland.
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Ms Bairbre de Brún: Faoi láthair tá 35 mháinlia chomhairleacha ortaipéideacha anseo agus post ag 18 sainoiliúnaí. Thairg triúr lianna comhairleacha éirí as ar na mallaibh ach fanfaidh siad ina bpoist go ceann tamaill bhig eile. De na hoiliúnaithe atá ann, tá ceathrar iarrthóirí féideartha ann do na folúntais do lianna comhairleacha a d’fhéadfadh a bheith ann sna míonna seo chugainn.
Sna tosaíochtaí do ghníomhaíocht tá tiomantas ar leith seirbhísí a fhorbairt agus fógraíodh dhá phost i máinliacht dhromlaigh le deireannas.
Currently there are 35 consultant orthopaedic surgeons here and 18 specialist trainees in post. Three consultants have recently submitted their resignations but will remain in post for a further short period. Out of the current training pool there are four potential candidates for consultant vacancies that may arise over the next few months. A specific commitment to develop services in fractures and spinal surgery is contained in the priorities for action, and two consultant posts in spinal surgery have been advertised recently.

Dr Joe Hendron: I know that the Minister accepts that there is a serious shortage of orthopaedic surgeons in Northern Ireland, especially in comparison with England and Scotland. Two young, recently appointed consultants have resigned to take up posts in England, while two others will job-share, which means that four young surgeons are leaving the National Health Service in Northern Ireland because they could not get adequate operating theatre and outpatient access in the Royal Victoria, Musgrave Park and Craigavon Area hospitals.
Even more importantly, it has recently been revealed that accident and emergency consultants in Craigavon and Antrim hospitals will cease to attend fracture clinics in those hospitals from 1 January 2002 in order to follow their speciality to Royal College standards. Does the Minister therefore accept that these actions will thrust the Northern Ireland orthopaedic service into a sudden, large and unplanned increase in workload, which could easily lead to a devastating reduction in elective orthopaedic surgery such as hip or knee replacement?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: Dr Hendron has highlighted a wider problem — the shortage of consultants here, despite an increase of 22% since 1995. Difficulties remain in filling consultant posts in some specific services. With the numbers completing specialist training over the next three years, there is the potential for a further 10% increase in consultant numbers in general. Some local services are badly affected by the loss of even one consultant. Therefore, specialist medical staffing is reviewed regularly.
My officials have been working closely with trust and board personnel to alleviate the current acute staffing shortages. Clearly, the number of orthopaedic surgeons per head of population here is lower than in the NHS in Britain. We have been increasing the number of specialist trainees over recent years, and we will be keeping that under review.
I also understand that there have been difficulties in accessing bed and theatre availability caused by increased demand. The regional spinal surgery service at the Royal Victoria Hospital (RVH) will begin as soon as the theatres in phase one of the new RVH become fully operational. We hope that that will improve some aspects of the service. However, I totally accept that both foreseen and unforeseen changes are impacting on the service and that we need to keep the measures needed under constant review.

Mr Gardiner Kane: What action, other than apologising to patients, does the Minister propose to take to deal with the shortage of beds at the Ulster Hospital, Dundonald?

Sir John Gorman: The question was about orthopaedic consultants. Do you want to make your question about that matter, or are you asking something that is not relevant?

Mr Gardiner Kane: It is relevant.

Sir John Gorman: Is the Minister prepared to answer that question?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: I fully answered all questions on the Ulster Hospital when I replied to Mrs Robinson. I refer the Member to those answers.

Mr Billy Armstrong: Does the Minister plan to create an orthopaedic consultancy post in the Southern Board area?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: As I said, we are currently keeping the necessary numbers and locations under review. That is not my intention at present, but I can write to the Member when we have a clearer idea of the way forward.

Surgical Procedures: Waiting Times

Mr Edwin Poots: 6. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail (a) the waiting time for cardiac surgery in October 2000, and (b) the current waiting time.
(AQO1498/00)

Mr Eddie McGrady: 8. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail her plans to reduce the waiting times for all surgical procedures in Belfast hospitals; and to make a statement.
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Ms Bairbre de Brún: Le do chead, a LeasCheann Comhairle, glacfaidh mé ceisteanna 6 agus 8 le chéile mar go mbaineann siad araon le hamanna feithimh.
With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take questions 6 and 8 together, as they both deal with waiting times.
Ag deireadh Mheán Fómhair 2000, bhí 591 duine ag fanacht le máinliacht chairdiach. De na daoine seo, bhí 437 ag fanacht níos lú ná 12 mhí chaighdeán na cairte. Ag deireadh Nollaig 2000, an dáta is déanaí dá bhfuil eolas ar fáil, bhí 570 duine ag fanacht agus 414 acu ag fanacht níos lú ná 12 mhí.
At the end of September 2000, 591 people were waiting for cardiac surgery, of whom 437 had been waiting for less than the Charter standard of 12 months. At the end of December 2000, which is the most recent information available, 570 people were waiting, with 414 people waiting for less than one year.
I am concerned about the length of time that people are having to wait for treatment. My proposals for action are set out in the framework for action on waiting lists and in the priorities for action. This year, I have set a target of a 50 % reduction in the number of people waiting for longer than the Charter standard and the complete elimination of such long waits by March 2003.
I also set a target for waiting lists to be reduced to 48,000 by March 2002, as a first step towards bringing the numbers down to 39,000 by March 2004. That reduction will have a direct impact on the length of time that people must wait.

Mr Edwin Poots: Those are quite alarming figures. Many of the 160 people who have been waiting more than 12 months for cardiac surgery are dying because of the delay. We hear that targets for reduction are being set. How are those targets going to be achieved? How can the Minister demonstrate that those targets can be achieved under the current Administration?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: With regard to the number of people who are waiting for operations, one of the factors is that much more can now be done for patients with heart disease, including those who have had previous operations, and the elderly. Consequently, the patients who have cardiac surgery tend to be older and sicker than was previously the case. They often need longer hospital stays in cardiac surgery and in intensive care in the few days following surgery. That has reduced the throughput of patients.
Recruitment and retention of nursing staff trained in cardiac surgery is also a major challenge. This is a very specialised area, and it is a professionally demanding one to work in. The cardiac surgery review is addressing the matter in detail, and it will advise on immediate and long-term actions to help to strengthen the nursing complement.
With regard to improving the situation for cardiac patients while the review has been taking place, I have allocated additional funding for supernumerary nursing posts in cardiac intensive care to support the existing staff and to allow additional nurses to receive specialised training. That will help to increase bed capacity and, therefore, the number of operations possible.
The boards have been using some of the extra waiting list moneys that I have allocated to offer cardiac surgery to patients who have been waiting for a long time for operations elsewhere. That also frees up capacity at the Royal Victoria Hospital for those who do not wish to travel. Angiography facilities will soon be open at Altnagelvin Hospital. That will increase overall capacity here for this diagnostic testing, and that will help to reduce waiting times.
I have also published a framework for action on reducing waiting lists. I refer MrPoots to the number of different actions contained in that. That will significantly impact on waiting lists in general as well as on waiting lists for this speciality.

Mr Eddie McGrady: I was surprised that questions 8 and 6 were grouped together, because there is not a great similarity between them. My surprise was confirmed by the Minister’s answer, which was primarily on question6. However, the Minister will share our concern that waiting lists appear to be extending and developing, and the problem is not being resolved. Hidden underneath that, there is a further waiting list to get on the waiting list for people awaiting serious and urgent operations.
The setting of targets is wonderful and grand, but there is no point in setting targets unless they are achievable. What new action has been taken to reduce this expanding waiting list? The hospitals are chock-a- block. People cannot even get into Belfast City Hospital, yet this weekend another ward was closed in the Downe Hospital —

Sir John Gorman: You are going a little beyond the question.

Mr Eddie McGrady: The question is about waiting lists. These people are on waiting lists to get into Belfast City Hospital. They cannot get into Belfast City Hospital or the Royal Victoria Hospital, yet they are also being chucked out of the Downe Hospital. Where is it all going to end?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: I thank the Member for his election speech and for his question. An extra £3million has been allocated this year for action on waiting lists. On top of that, last year’s non-recurrent allocation of £5million has been made recurrent, bringing the total additional resources available for action on waiting lists this year to £8million. That in itself will make a difference.
With regard to ensuring that the targets for reduction are achieved, the boards and trusts are bringing forward their waiting list action plans for 2001-02. I will want to be sure that practical and robust arrangements for achieving the reductions are in place. I will be closely monitoring progress during the year against the very specific points that were laid out for them in the framework that I issued in September 2000.
These include, for example, setting clear targets for reducing the number of patients waiting and the number of people who fail to keep appointments, thereby enabling others to have appointments. An improvement in efficiency should ensure that as many patients as possible are treated — for example, by making sure that waiting list information is up to date and that co-ordination of services is better, particularly between hospitals and the community. A number of other clinical, managerial and monitoring arrangements were laid out in my framework statement.
The particular ward in Downe Hospital that the Member refers to was opened in response to winter pressures. The observation ward was open only for the winter period, now at an end.

Mr Jim Shannon: Can the Minister detail her plans to reduce the waiting times for brain and heart surgery? Can she confirm that placements can be made in Scottish hospitals more quickly than in hospitals here?

Ms Bairbre de Brún: Concerning heart surgery, I refer to my answer to Mr Poots, unless the Member is perhaps talking about some other aspect that I missed. At present, it is easier to get surgery in this speciality in Scotland. That is why those who are willing to travel to Scotland for heart surgery are facilitated by the boards. That reduces the waiting list here for those who do not wish to travel.

Finance and Personnel

Sir John Gorman: Question 10, in the name of Mr McMenamin, has been withdrawn and will receive a written reply.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease

Mr Eddie McGrady: 1. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail his proposed discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer concerning the allocation of consequential loss allowance for those affected by foot-and-mouth disease in the farming, tourist and commercial fields in Northern Ireland; and to make a statement.
(AQO1508/00)

Mr Mark Durkan: Any new resources for Northern Ireland to address business hardship resulting from foot-and-mouth disease would arise only as a consequence of additional spending in England for that purpose. On that basis, we have established with the Treasury that approximately £1 million will be available for measures here. That will be comparable to rate relief measures in Great Britain.
As I have explained to the Assembly previously, the Executive and Departments have been working on preparing a suitable scheme. This scheme was agreed at the Executive meeting on 17 May and was announced by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister this morning in a priority written answer. I also sent details of the scheme to the Chairperson of the Finance and Personnel Committee, with copies to the Chairpersons of the Committees for Enterprise, Trade and Investment and Agriculture and Rural Development.

Mr Eddie McGrady: I welcome the written priority answer to my written priority question, explaining the grant aid in respect of rate relief. However, in view of his reply, can the Minister confirm that the hard-pressed businesses in Northern Ireland will get like for like with Great Britain? I assume that the £1 million to which he referred is based on the Barnett formula. Can he confirm that it will not be an all-time cap but that, if the £1 million does not fit the requirement, the Northern Ireland Executive will, with judicial management, address the shortfall and that no person will suffer unduly as a consequence of a lack of funding for that scheme?

Mr Mark Durkan: I am happy to reassure the Member that the £1 million will come from the Treasury for this scheme to give businesses here similar benefit to the rate relief applied in Great Britain. That money is a Treasury contribution, and those who manage the scheme will not be working to a ceiling of £1 million. No budget has been fixed, because the scheme will be demand-led.

Mr Francie Molloy: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Today’s announcement is welcome to farming and related businesses in rural areas. I hope that the scheme will alleviate some of the stress that the farming community has felt. Does the Minister envisage a cut-off time for applications for grant aid under the scheme? Some farms that have been infected or have had animals slaughtered are no longer in operation, and the farmers may not be entitled to housing benefit in the normal way. Can they claim grant aid under the scheme as well? Cattle marts have been identified as an associated industry— and that is welcome — but could events such as horse shows and the people who make their living from attending and exhibiting at those also be part of the scheme?

Mr Mark Durkan: I acknowledge the Chairperson’s welcome of today’s announcement, and I appreciate the constructive interest that that Committee, and others, have taken in this matter.
Businesses should register for the scheme by 20 June. It is entirely reasonable that a date is set, given that the scheme is meant to address hardship that is manifesting itself now. The scheme is for business relief, so it will not be for domestic rating purposes per se. However, the Department of Finance and Personnel recognises, as has been reflected in debate here and elsewhere, that some farms have diversified, particularly into tourism, and so there are some businesses such as those offering bed and breakfast that, because of their scale, are paying only the domestic rate.
The Department is, therefore, making provision to enable such businesses to achieve commensurate rate relief. However, the relief scheme has not been extended to domestic rates as such; that is not the case in Great Britain either. Members asked the Department to create a scheme to ensure that businesses here were in a no less advantageous position for relief than businesses across the water, and the Department has delivered that.
The point about cattle marts was registered here in previous debates and was covered by today’s announcement.

Mr George Savage: I welcome today’s announcement on behalf of the Agriculture Committee. That Committee heard at first hand of the hardships that are faced by the owners and operators of livestock marts. Today’s acknowledgement that the Department closed down the marts and other businesses is welcome.
However, can the Minister detail any additional options that were considered to provide further relief against the ongoing costs of these businesses such as insurance and rent? Will assistance be given towards any capital investment that marts will have to make before they are allowed to reopen? The announcement is welcome to businesses that are related to agriculture, but in the horse world, riding schools have been closed — do they come under that umbrella as well?

Mr Mark Durkan: Obviously any of the equestrian centres that have seen a reduction in turnover because of the foot-and-mouth restrictions will be eligible to apply in the same way as any other business. This scheme is to ensure that businesses that can show hardship are not liable for rates — as with businesses across the water — during the period of hardship. The Department has achieved that.
The Member raised other issues such as grant assistance in other forms and for other problems. This announcement does not cover those issues.

Mr Sean Neeson: I welcome the Minister’s statement, but is he aware that our Committee has received representations from the Northern Ireland Hotels Federation, from people who own bed-and-breakfast facilities and from coach operators? Will the applications be dealt with flexibly? Will small bed-and-breakfast facilities that provide fewer than six places and pay domestic rates qualify for the grant scheme? What plans does the Minister have for an appeals mechanism? That will be important in dealing with such a detailed and sensitive issue.

Mr Mark Durkan: I am aware, as are the Executive, of the representations that various business sectors have made to Committees and directly to Ministers. We have tried to make sure that the arrangements extend assistance to businesses here similar to that offered to businesses across the water. That has been done. Questions are being asked about further assistance, for which there would be no cover from the Treasury or anyone else.
There will be a review mechanism so that anyone who is refused assistance may have the decision reviewed. Smaller bed-and-breakfast establishments, with fewer than six bedrooms, will be eligible for assistance, provided that they can produce evidence of hardship. We should remember that this is a hardship relief scheme; businesses will have to show evidence of hardship and evidence that the hardship was related to foot-and-mouth disease. To qualify for the grant, businesses will have to prove a 15% drop in turnover. We think that that figure is realistic and that it is not too exacting an indicator of hardship.

Rates Increase

Mr Billy Armstrong: 2. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel in the light of the recent rates increase what consideration he has given to the plight of local community halls, many of which act as a focus of community activity in remote rural areas; and to make a statement.
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Orange Halls (Derating)

Mr George Savage: 11. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether he has any plans to derate Orange Halls and premises belonging to the Loyal Orders throughout the Province, as they are essentially cultural venues.
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Mr Mark Durkan: Mr Deputy Speaker, with your permission, I will take questions 2 and 11 together.
Existing legislation permits rate relief on any hall with facilities that the wider community uses. The degree of relief available is in direct proportion to the use of the facility for charitable and broad community purposes. The review of rating policy will include consideration of all existing relief.

Mr Billy Armstrong: Does the Minister recognise the vital role that rural halls play in the community? How does he intend to alleviate the financial burdens that many such halls have accumulated?

Mr Mark Durkan: We recognise that many organisations and community groups that use and run halls have funding difficulties, and we address those in many of our spending programmes. There are some rate relief concessions available for halls that are used for wider community purposes. In the context of the rating policy review, we will look at those reliefs and at suggestions for revising them.

Mr George Savage: I am sure that the Minister is aware that in many country areas the local Orange Halls are the only halls that are available for public use. As those halls fulfil a unique and valuable function, they should be derated. They are primarily cultural venues and, as such, deserve to be derated in the interests of fairness and equity.

Mr Mark Durkan: I refer the Member to what I have already said. There are existing facilities that allow a measure of rate relief to be accorded to halls where they are used for wider community or charitable purposes. That measure applies only when a hall is used for those purposes. There are no plans automatically to derate any particular category of hall on the grounds that it is used as a cultural venue or anything similar.

Mr Edwin Poots: Does the Minister accept that he has made a very unfair ruling, as Orange Halls are essentially cultural halls? GAA halls are used for sporting purposes, and he finds it completely reasonable to derate those, yet he asks that Orange Halls prove that they are being used to set up children’s groups, youth clubs, youth meetings, and so on, before they can be derated. Those responsible for the Orange Halls have to provide more information than the GAA has to. Surely it is unfair and iniquitous for the Minister not to derate Orange Halls while continuing to give the GAA full rate relief.

Mr Mark Durkan: I remind the Member that no decision has been taken yet. I am reflecting the current position in terms of the rating regime. There is a rating policy review. That review will look at existing reliefs and exemptions and any possible revisions that may be made to them. Any hall, regardless of who owns or operates it, is eligible for rate relief if it is used for a wider community or charitable purpose. There is not, as the Member suggests, total derating for the GAA. I realise that many halls are used for a variety of activities, perhaps including line dancing. I do not know whether the Member believes that that broader community activity should be eligible for rate relief.

Census Forms

Mr David Ford: 3. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail (a) the success rate in the delivery of census forms and (b) the return rate to date.
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Mr Mark Durkan: It is estimated that over 99% of households received a form prior to census day. A census coverage survey that will be carried out later this week will be used to quantify more accurately the extent of any missed coverage. A similar survey was conducted in 1991. It is estimated that over 90% of forms have now been returned. Work is continuing to get all the forms back.

Mr David Ford: If the figure were 99%, we could be reasonably satisfied. I have some anecdotal evidence of failure to deliver the forms in parts of Belfast, in particular. I do not simply mean the kind of student rented area that might be considered difficult to deliver forms to, but also some residential suburban areas. What procedures will be in place to follow up nil returns, particularly if householders have attempted to contact the helpline and have still been unable to get forms delivered to them?

Mr Mark Durkan: We appreciate any information that any Member can give us about failure to deliver forms. The helpline has been put in place to try to pick up on that issue. If Members, in the course of any other activities that they and their party Colleagues might be conducting in the next while that will bring them to people’s doorsteps, hear of any instances in which people have not had forms delivered, we hope that they will use the helpline to assist them.
There have been some problems and some people missed, for example, in some newer developments. Also, some areas may have fallen between enumeration district boundaries. We have tried to deal with all of those, and we will try to pick up on any other outstanding issues. Enumerators are currently in the field to follow up on households where there has not yet been a return in order to ensure that there will be the fullest possible return of census forms.

Peace II Funding

Mr Roy Beggs: 4. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to ensure that the Peace II funding will be carefully monitored to ensure equality in the distribution of funding.
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Mr Mark Durkan: A number of agreed horizontal principles will govern the way in which the Peace II programme will be implemented. These principles address equality and balance considerations. Furthermore, in accordance with section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the special EU programmes body, which is the managing authority for Peace II, has a statutory responsibility to promote equality of opportunity.

Mr Roy Beggs: Will the Minister acknowledge that there are areas of need in every constituency and every council area? Is he aware that of £22·25 million spent by one intermediate funding body, Proteus, none was spent in the Carrickfergus Borough area? Furthermore, is he aware that I flagged up to his Department two years ago that no funding was being spent by that body in Carrickfergus? Given the failure of his Department and the intermediate funding body to act subsequently, how can he assure my constituents that, in the future, Peace II money will be spent fairly?

Mr Mark Durkan: First, the programme, the particular measure and the intermediate funding body to which the Member referred are obviously part of Peace I. In due course, we will be conducting a full evaluation of Peace I. As the Member indicates, at the interim stage there were concerns, reflected by the MEPs among others, that not all areas were getting similar access to funding. In many cases that was as much to do with problems with applications as with the allocations themselves. That needs to be reflected.
Across all measures in Peace II, we are trying to ensure that all areas of need and all sectors are able to make viable applications that are worthy of support. We are determined to fulfil the requirements of Peace II. We cannot pretend that every single measure under Peace I could be expected to cover every need in every geographical area — it was just not in the nature of the scheme, and it was certainly not within the scope of the funding involved.

Mr Jim Shannon: It is important that we monitor to ensure equality in the distribution of funding — that is crucial. Can the Minister confirm that Strangford Lough is the only area of outstanding natural beauty that does not qualify for Peace II funding on the criterion of disadvantage? Does he agree that places like Killyleagh, Greyabbey, Kircubbin and Portaferry have great social need and should be included rather than excluded as at present?

Mr Mark Durkan: The Member has rightly said that it is going to be important to monitor Peace II. That is why we have put much stronger arrangements in place for the monitoring committees, with much clearer roles. One of their key roles will be to agree the programme complements. We are currently devising them. They have to be agreed by the monitoring committees before we can call for applications for funding.
I should make it clear that under the community support framework, as approved by the European Commission, we are meant to target this programme at areas of social need. There are criteria that we have to be seen to have regard to, and the monitoring committees will want to be satisfied about that as well.

Mr Gerry McHugh: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. With regard to monitoring in particular, can the Minister tell me if there will be consultation with local partnerships? Can we move to having more standardisation or a single monitoring system, which would be better for local areas? The last time a lot of irrelevant questions were asked. We need essential monitoring and evaluation of the programme.

Mr Mark Durkan: As I indicated, we have new monitoring arrangements in place for Peace II in respect of the new monitoring committee. There is also a new monitoring committee for the building sustainable prosperity programme and for the community support framework overall.
We are also moving towards the new Northern Ireland regional partnership board that will not oversee the detailed work of the district partnerships in the same way but will be responsible for promoting and fostering the wider development of partnership and encouraging best practice. In the new models of partnership which we hope to develop, we want to ensure that better partnership models develop in local areas; those models will depend on local agreement. We also want uniformity to help us achieve the highest possible standards.

Gap Funding

Ms Patricia Lewsley: 5. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether all Departments have been fully informed about the arrangements for addressing the issue of gap funding and to detail when he made this information available.
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Mr Mark Durkan: Departments have been fully informed and involved in the arrangements for addressing the issue of gap funding since 8 February 2001. That was when the Executive agreed its approach to the issue which I set out in my statement to the Assembly on 12 February. The interdepartmental EU steering group, which is chaired by the Department of Finance and Personnel, discussed the issue at a meeting on 19 February. A working group made up of departmental representatives was then established to manage the arrangements, and it has since met on a number of occasions to review progress and deal with matters arising. I have also been in correspondence with my fellow Ministers.

Ms Patricia Lewsley: As the Minister is aware, gap funding provisions are dependent on programme complements being agreed within the timescale set out, which is 21 June. I note that the equality consultation has started, which is important. However, does the Minister agree that there is a need for the complements to be about quality and not just equality? The monitoring committees are expressing some concerns about the clarity and robustness of the indicators that are being produced for inclusion in the complements. Can the Minister update us on that issue?

Mr Mark Durkan: It is important to ensure that high-quality indicators are in place to enable the monitoring committees to measure the effectiveness of the return we are getting on public investment under these programmes.
The special EU programmes body and the Department of Finance and Personnel, as managing authorities for the Peace II and building sustainable prosperity operational programmes, have included targets and indicators for each measure in the initial drafts of the programme complements. Those are being refined in conjunction with the monitoring committees as part of the ongoing consultation on the programme complements. Those targets and indicators will be further quality assured.

New Targeting Social Need

Mrs Annie Courtney: 6. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail the progress being made on the review of procurement and to give an assurance that the findings of this review team will reflect the Executive’s commitment to new targeting social need and equality.
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Mr Mark Durkan: The review team has now met on six occasions, and it engaged in a public consultation on 3 May. It has discussed its emerging thoughts with the Finance and Personnel Committee and with officials in Departments. That will assist the team to bring forward its proposals, taking account of the equality dimension, for consideration by the Executive Committee in June. Among other things, the review team’s terms of reference ask it to identify the scope to use public procurement to further local social and economic objectives in the context of current EC and international procurement law.

Mrs Annie Courtney: Will the Minister confirm that all Departments and their agencies will be required to conform to good practice models of procurement, thereby ensuring that the people of Northern Ireland have value for money and fairness in all public purchasing, no matter where it is carried out?

Mr Mark Durkan: The original review of procurement carried out prior to devolution showed that there was considerable room for improvement. It will be important to maximise the gains that are possible in terms of value for money and equality for all.
It is important to ensure that guidance on good practice models is promulgated throughout Departments, their agencies and other associated bodies and that procedures are in place to ensure adherence to those guidelines.

Local Strategy Partnerships

Dr Alasdair McDonnell: 7. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail the progress being made on the setting up of the new local strategy partnerships.
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Mr Mark Durkan: Arrangements for the implementation of the new local strategy partnerships were discussed at a colloquy in Ballymena on 31 January. It was attended by all the organisations involved in the delivery of Peace I. Following that, the special EU programmes body (SEUPB) convened a focus group to draft guidelines for the formation and operation of the new local strategy partnerships. The SEUPB has initiated a consultation and information process on these arrangements, including a series of seminars that were held earlier this month. The SEUPB has now issued guidelines on the formation and operation of the local strategy partnerships and on the development of integrated local strategies.

Dr Alasdair McDonnell: Will these new partnerships be encouraged to develop long-term sustainability, and will we see these structures being fully utilised in areas other than EU funding situations, giving local people a better opportunity to influence issues that affect their lives and that of the community?

Mr Mark Durkan: I do not see the principles of local partnership working as something that can apply only to European funding, to be thrown away once that funding ends. I want to see partnership working become an integral part of how we ensure that local community voices are heard. They influence priorities for spending at local level — not just in respect of European funds, but of all sources of public funding. The input from district councils at a corporate level, and from the statutory agencies that operate at local level, will be important in developing long-term sustainability.

Sir John Gorman: I want to comment on the failure of some Members to appear and ask their questions. In the early part of Question Time there were at least three questions that did not have a questioner. I beg Members to be in their seats by 2.30 pm for the beginning of Question Time.
Adjourned at 4.08 pm.